Jay (00:01.608)
Welcome to the Dive Table. I'm Jay Gardner and back with me is our fourth co-host of season two. Again, coming from, you haven't moved yet, have you? You're still in Austin? Oh, okay, good. Coming from Austin, Texas. That was a joke, you're not planning on moving. Mr. Scott Bauer. Scott, how are you doing this fine evening?
Scott Bauer (00:14.806)
Yeah, still in Austin.
Scott Bauer (00:18.654)
No.
Scott Bauer (00:25.883)
I'm doing good. Doing great.
Jay (00:28.66)
Doing great, not just good. That's what I like to hear. That's what I like to hear, that's good. And producer Daniel is here as well, which must mean we are recording another episode of the show. Scott, I had a lot of fun on the last one. I mentioned afterwards, it just was a normal conversation. Like, this is totally comfortable in that way. And I'm really looking forward to the next couple of shows we get to do together, so.
Scott Bauer (00:30.114)
Doing great, yeah.
Jay (00:57.44)
Thanks for being here, helping me and others unpack kind of the photography subject together. I really appreciate you being on the show.
Scott Bauer (01:05.43)
Yeah, it's good to be back.
Jay (01:08.56)
Awesome, and so for this episode, we wanted to look at maybe, based on what we did last time, a little bit more depth to the subject of photography. And this can be a little bit of a touchy subject, because we know how the saying goes, art is in the eyes of the beholder. And that's, I think, relatively true. We can debate the merits of that statement, but that's a relatively true statement. But there's a good discussion to be had
Jay (01:37.916)
here around what makes a good underwater photograph, right? What makes a good photograph? If you're gonna take them, you know, what is the composition of it? What does it take to take one? So on and so forth. So I think we wanna unpack this. It might be a bit touchy and we'll see, but who knows, we'll see where it goes. So you ready to jump into this subject?
Scott Bauer (02:00.814)
Yeah. Oh, this is where I say something catchy again, where it's like, let's, uh... ..
Jay (02:10.336)
or whatever you want to say. Let's shutter roll into it. No puns for you. Scott doesn't have kids yet, so he's not a pun master yet. It comes I think when you... Yeah, you gotta, yeah, you fill them up. I have a book actually I can lend you that my kids got me for Christmas or birthday, one of them of dad jokes. So there you go. All right, good. Let's get into it.
Scott Bauer (02:10.466)
I think last time. Yeah, I'll spare everybody that. Yeah, I'll spare everybody that.
Scott Bauer (02:20.314)
Yeah, no fun.
Scott Bauer (02:23.211)
I don't have the dad jokes in my bag pocket, yeah. I need to work on that.
Scott Bauer (02:30.486)
Ha ha ha
Jay (02:39.416)
Okay, so let's set this one up with maybe a tough conversation to be had, which is how do we, can Scott and Jay here come to a consensus of how we define a good versus a quote unquote bad photograph. So again, arts in the eyes of the beholder, so on and so forth, but you have to have an opinion because it's a podcast and we have to say something.
Jay (03:08.728)
Are there technical aspects of a good versus bad photo? You know, what's good? What does that really mean and what is bad? Is there such a thing as bad? And are there dependencies on the type of photo? Like you could have a really awesome macro photo that would not be awesome if it was a wide angle photo or something like that. So let's get into this. I know it's not, you know, we're not gonna solve it but I think it's good to have the discussion at the very least.
Scott Bauer (03:33.706)
No, I like this question. So there's definitely such thing as a bad photograph. And I've taken a lot of them. That's how I know. But.
Jay (03:44.384)
But it's not just a butt photograph, like accidental. Like you took the photo thinking like it'd be good and it was bad.
Scott Bauer (03:47.582)
Yeah, not just an accidental photograph. Yeah. Yeah. And it has to have some things in it, you know, and you start to, you start to learn it's like, okay, it has to have this element and it has to have this element in it. And a lot of times, um, of course, you know, to be really basic, of course, it has to have good composition and we could talk more about what makes a good composition and, um, it also has to have good lighting and we talk more about what good lighting is too. Um, but yeah, no, I.
Scott Bauer (04:14.898)
I think that, you know, subject matter, lighting and composition, how you let those three things have a relationship with each other. I think that's what creates a good versus bad photograph. And of course, it's just an opinion. But I'm definitely guilty myself of taking many bad photographs. And I think part of the process of learning what a good photograph is, is starting by taking some bad ones. Yeah.
Jay (04:43.083)
Okay.
Scott Bauer (04:44.778)
But so we can start with composition. Um, I think there's a lot of things that could create a good composition. I'm not the greatest at it. Uh, it's something that, um, I really start to think about more when I start diving in the same place over and over again, and I think about composition less, unfortunately, when I'm in new, really cool places that I'm not used to being in, it's just, it's like a sensory overload. I can't. Um,
Scott Bauer (05:11.978)
Like when I was in Roatan just now, I was just trying to, you know, figure out what's around me, much less be like, Oh, well, this CFAM would look really good right next to this squid that I've never seen before. Like if you, if you see something that you've never seen for the first time, it's really hard to nail a good composition. And I think a lot of photographs that I consider good ones, I've taken by accident, which is ironic compared to, you know,
Jay (05:32.466)
Hmm.
Scott Bauer (05:39.95)
know what you said earlier about a bad photograph being one that you accidentally take of you know someone's blood or something like that but I think a lot of times the good ones are accidents and they're they're what I call happy accidents um but in spring lake for example I'm so familiar with that place and I'm so comfortable there I'm definitely thinking about composition a lot when I'm when I'm diving through that environment and it's because I have the the mental freedom to um but I think um
Scott Bauer (06:07.766)
you know, balance and symmetry a lot of times. Like if you can figure out how to create like really good symmetry, like have your subject matter right in the center of the photograph, maybe right underneath the surface of the water. And you can see the reflection of that diver up there in the surface. There's a lot of fun things you can do that create a really good composition. But a lot of times that can still in itself be pretty dull. If you don't have good lighting that compliments that.
Scott Bauer (06:36.87)
if there's a shadow on the face of the diver that you just took a photograph and you can't really see a whole lot of detail, or if the lighting is not very flattering on that diver, if that makes sense. So if the lighting's coming from the wrong angle, maybe it's coming from underneath their chin, or if it just doesn't look natural. And light rays are another thing that, if you're lucky enough to get some light rays in that composition, that's something that always helps too.
Scott Bauer (07:06.266)
But just to kind of simplify things, there's a few things that I consider really crucial to have a photograph that'll catch just about anyone's attention. And that's if you can have an interesting texture on what I call the substrate. So that's going to be the ground, the lake bottom or the sea bottom, whatever you're on, coral reef. If you could have an interesting texture on the bottom and if the surface is close enough to that as well.
Scott Bauer (07:36.054)
So if you can see the surface of the water, and if you could throw some light rays in there and have an interesting subject, then just about anyone that sees that is gonna respond to that photograph in some sort of way, if that makes sense.
Jay (07:47.084)
Hmm.
Scott Bauer (07:48.334)
And that might be a little oversimplified, but you know, there's probably a little bit more that goes into that. But that's what I like. You know, that's what I typically like to go for.
Jay (07:59.608)
And that's super interesting that the way you wrap that up was if these pieces are in place, right, the composition, the lighting, right, the subject, that then people will have a response to it. So it's super interesting, like, you know, it's not the evaluation of the photograph from like an academic technical aspect of like, does it have all these things in place at the right, you know, exposure level and...
Scott Bauer (08:06.934)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (08:28.828)
the right color balance and all these sorts of things, that it's more when you get these things right, the photo then can communicate, right? People can connect to the photo in some way.
Scott Bauer (08:38.974)
Yeah, yeah, and the white balance and the settings on your camera, you know, just like your buoyancy and trim that usually should all be second nature. But if if the composition and the subject and all those other elements line up and a lot of times, like I said, it happens to me, it happens by accident. To be completely honest. But yeah, if that all falls into place, then in my opinion, that's a good photograph and that'll grab a lot of people's attention.
Jay (08:59.048)
Hehehe
Scott Bauer (09:07.574)
Uh, scientifically when it comes to compositions, if you have, there's certain roles that come into play. Um, and there's so many of them, you know, there's, um, now what did they, what, what did they call it? Uh, like the golden rectangle or whatever. There's certain proportions that if you know, yeah, the golden ratio, yeah, there's, there's all sorts of things. Yeah. We can, we can talk all day, what makes a good composition and there's, you know, all sorts of things that play into that. But, uh,
Jay (09:22.46)
and golden ratio. Yeah, 1.3168, yeah, the Roman column.
Scott Bauer (09:35.202)
To be honest, for me, it happens by accident. And it just comes from shooting a lot and looking at it afterwards and saying, hey, I really like this. And usually what I really like has all those things in it.
Jay (09:40.004)
I love it. I love it.
Jay (09:49.472)
Yeah, that's interesting. Well, maybe coming from a different angle, but building on what you said there, I think too that there's, if you think about photography or photographs as pieces of communication, kind of what we were mentioning in the last episode, and if you didn't listen to that, go back and listen if you're out there and you're wondering what we talked about. But photographs are communication in some way, or.
Jay (10:16.936)
or can be used as that and are often used that way. And so when you talk about that communication tool, I don't know necessarily when it comes to photographs how to determine a good versus bad technical photograph. But when it comes to communication, I can, right? That was what I studied and what I love. And so in that level, there's another layer of good versus bad in the sense of like, when you think about the type of photography, for example,
Jay (10:46.316)
If you think about documentary photos, like does it capture that moment, that expedition, right, that discovery? Like let's just say there's a, you know, you just discovered a new chamber in a cave, does it, and you're trying to capture that photo. A good photo can capture that moment. And it may follow all of these technical rules as well, but you can look at a photo that maybe breaks some of these that captures that moment or that.
Jay (11:14.492)
you know, expedition or whatever it would be from a documentarian perspective.
Scott Bauer (11:17.942)
I love that. Yeah. And it kind of sounds like what you're talking about is more of like a photo journalistic approach to that photograph that just happened to capture the emotion that you're feeling when you discover that that new cave cave cave passage, just using that as an example. Or it could also be like a picture that I took the other week of a more eel. I was just you know, I was taking a picture of him up close and afterwards I noticed that there is a little
Jay (11:30.14)
Right. Right.
Jay (11:34.986)
Right.
Scott Bauer (11:47.73)
uh... cleaner go be cleaning out his gills and another one inside his mouth clean out his teeth and you know that tells the story of uh... the life cycle of that uh... you know that that cleaner raster cleaner go be whatever it is and how the the you'll just let the crawl inside its mouth and crawl inside skills and uh... this is a creature that can eat that go be you know but he lets him do that because there's a beneficial role to both of those animals
Scott Bauer (12:13.214)
So yeah, there's these things that go into the composition that tell a story. And the things that I was talking about earlier purely service level, like what's the word I'm thinking of, just visual, you know, visual nice things to look at versus an actual composition that tells a story. And if you could get everything packed into that one rectangle to where it not only looks great, but you know.
Jay (12:30.121)
Yeah.
Scott Bauer (12:42.667)
has a whole story that it has to tell you in one frame, then to me that's a really, really big success.
Jay (12:49.8)
Yeah. And I think when you talk about the, the more eel right in the goby, the that's like an environmental, does it capture that moment? Cause you saw it and you're seeing that moment and it's building to this level of like, this tells the story of an ecosystem that's the, you know, mutually beneficial here. Like does that photo capture that environment? Or if it's a really cool photo of the eel, but it misses that goby in some ways, like, cause you were there, it's maybe.
Scott Bauer (12:58.964)
Yeah.
Scott Bauer (13:16.45)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Bauer (13:19.522)
Then it's just an eel portrait, you know? Yeah. That's just the...
Jay (13:19.68)
that's a little less great, right? Yeah, a new portrait, which they'll pay you 50 bucks for, right, they'll give you a real shock of a deal for it. So yeah, anyway, but yeah. And then I think there's, so environmental photos to be good communication tools have to capture that environment as if you were there, or the aspect of that environment that you were there. And I think maybe another category too is kind of an emotional or human interest photo, which you do a lot of.
Scott Bauer (13:29.343)
Yeah.
Jay (13:48.48)
I know that you and I love that. One of the things I love about diving with you is I always end up with some photo of myself which is nice. But I was thinking the human interest side of things or the emotional side, does it capture the person? Like you said, there's a technical aspect if there's a shadow over my eyes or if flight's coming up from underneath my chin or whatever. These things are… If you make me look fat under the water, right? Whatever. No.
Scott Bauer (14:10.334)
making your chin look fat
Jay (14:18.172)
Like that photo we were talking about in the last episode of me, like being a magician underwater, like, you know, throwing smoke bombs. We're just messing around. And I love that photo because you really captured that me in that, like what I was doing. I was just like, okay, you're done chasing the gar, whatever you were doing. Like, all right, can we move on now? Like, poof, we're gone. You know, it was kind of what was going on in my mind. Of course, I'm not saying that. We're under the water.
Jay (14:44.264)
And for however you did it, you captured that moment of me kind of going like, poof, let's go. And it was, that's very much my personality. Like, all right, let's go. And so there's a cap, does it capture a person? So I think it's super interesting to think about. Good is, I think for sure, if it's a big blurry blue, a bit, like it's, there's no chance it can communicate.
Jay (15:11.444)
right, other than if, you know, a certain color of blue, I guess. But, um, but when you talk about getting some of the technical aspects of composition, of lighting, of subject, you know, well rounded out and balanced. And then you, that gives it a chance then to, to use as a communication tool, like, you know, as a, as something that really accomplishes what the payoff.
Scott Bauer (15:32.234)
Yeah, the visual appealing this to it is just like the first step in my opinion, you know, because I think you have to have that to get to the parts where it's going to start to tell a story to otherwise. I mean, even without the, you know, the visual, you know, even without that, that nice candy appearance, that really attractive appearance, you can have a photograph that tells a story and sure it tells that story, but I don't think it will grab the same attention.
Scott Bauer (16:01.398)
That it would if you weren't able to get you know that really magical look to it, you know And a lot of photojournalism that I've looked at in magazines What not is kind of more along those lines where it might be kind of kind of boring visually But it still tells like if you really studied it still tells a lot of details about what might have happened that day Or what's going on in that frame? But what I like to do or what I like to try to do. I'm not saying I'm
Scott Bauer (16:29.554)
I'm good at accomplishing that by any means. But what I would like is to have something that you would hang on your wall as some sort of fine art print, but tells the story of that feeling that you had when you were in that place and you saw that thing going down, whether it's part of a coral reef ecosystem or whether it's that carefree Sunday afternoon we had in Spring Lake where you threw the sand up in the air on cream of wheat.
Scott Bauer (16:58.974)
that sort of guideline is what I find attractive in a good photograph. Gives you a feeling, conveys a feeling that you felt when you were there and is visually appealing and tells that story really nice and really efficiently, as you said in that frame.
Jay (17:19.092)
Yeah, yeah, super interesting. All right, well, let's then maybe move to, I think we can both now sign up as judges for all of these underwater photography contests that they run out there. So if you're out there and you run one of those, Scott and I can be a judge. We have our own criteria that we can bring now. We've discussed it and decided. Or you can borrow our criteria and go for it, however you'd like. But yeah, that would be, that's funny. I think we've kind of got to a good place of what good.
Jay (17:48.264)
looks like and what bad can look like as well. So the burning question here then becomes how do you do it? So how do you take a good photo? Maybe the slash line on this too is what makes a good underwater photographer? I would argue that good photos on a consistent basis. If you're producing good photos, you are probably a good underwater photographer.
Jay (18:18.156)
can get lucky and capture a photo or a pull a still frame from something, and have a stroke of luck once to get that good photo. But I think good photos over time consistently come from good underwater photographers. And so maybe these things are intrinsically linked together. How do you take a good photo slash what makes a good underwater photographer? So.
Jay (18:46.232)
Are there specific skills required to capture a great photo? Are there technical considerations? I know you mentioned the camera setting should be second nature, but how do you make decisions about those things? And then what about in post, like editing and touching up the photos and so on and so forth, how does that stuff go? So what's your take on how do you take a good photo slash what's a good underwater photographer?
Scott Bauer (19:10.058)
Well, so aside from what we talked about on the last one to where, you know, it starts with skills and good buoyancy and good trim, and we can definitely come back to that. You know, obviously it'll it'll start there. Consistency, in my opinion, goes a long way diving a lot, especially diving with your camera a lot and getting used to, even if you don't even take a picture on that dive, getting used to moving around with the camera, what it feels like in a current, what it feels like moving around with it.
Scott Bauer (19:39.326)
Maybe even doing a gas switch with it in your right hand or just something that you always have to manage. It's a big deal having that thing in your hand all the time. And there's different techniques that people use to make their camera buoyant or slightly negative or maybe even in some cases slightly positive that I guess it's mostly personal preference, but it can be a lot to manage. Aside from that, color correction is
Jay (19:42.42)
Yeah, that's right.
Jay (20:07.488)
So let me pause you there for a second. So let me pause you before you go into color correction because I wanna maybe tie a bow around what you just said, which is, you know, a good photo starts with getting yourself squared away, right? And I don't wanna skip over this thought that you had there because it's really important that that means like any piece of equipment, the camera is something that you're training on.
Scott Bauer (20:08.322)
Probably the...
Scott Bauer (20:24.267)
Yeah.
Jay (20:36.764)
And I think that's super interesting because I actually have never taken an underwater photography class. So I'm not, I don't know if they go through camera management and how to deal with that piece of equipment. But I find that it's something that I hadn't really thought about until I took some cameras and was like, where do I clip this thing off? And how do I, like what I'm going to do a guess, which we're going to do, whatever. So let's maybe unpack that just a little bit before we get to color correction of like,
Scott Bauer (20:36.983)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Bauer (20:53.953)
Yeah.
Jay (21:06.356)
Yeah, how do you train
Scott Bauer (21:06.586)
No, for sure. Because I think that's a pretty important part of it. And, you know, I don't do anything specific to train. I just dive with it a lot. I just have it in my hand a lot when I'm diving. And maybe it's a good idea to practice. It's kind of a funny idea. Maybe it's a good idea to find a good reliable buddy and practice a valve drill with your camera in your right hand. I don't know. Maybe that's a bad idea. Well, yeah, we'll let other people debate that.
Jay (21:24.715)
Hahaha.
Scott Bauer (21:36.286)
Um, but yeah, just having in your hand a lot when you're diving, uh, just taking it on a lot of dives, even if you go into Lake Travis, uh, just having it with you, um, managing it throughout that dive while you're fulfilling that dive plan is, is a really good thing to do in my opinion. And, um, one of the biggest limitations that you'll notice when you start diving with, um, um, with a camera that's more than a GoPro or a point and shoot, you know, something that you actually have to.
Scott Bauer (22:04.93)
manage the settings and manage the size of it, the lighting arms, manipulating all that stuff, it's going to start to eat into your gas consumption quite a bit too, especially when you're not so much used to it. And I still think my my sac rate is not where it needs to be, but it's definitely been better than what than what it was when I first started diving with a bigger camera. And that's one of the first things I noticed when I started doing that.
Scott Bauer (22:34.102)
And I think the only way to get through that is to die with it a lot.
Jay (22:34.408)
Really? So you saw.
Jay (22:38.376)
Yeah, so when you started diving with the bigger rig, camera rig, you saw a noticeable uptick in your gas consumption, right?
Scott Bauer (22:47.634)
Absolutely. Especially if you're shooting a lot. And that's going to be kind of obvious. You know, you see a seahorse 10 feet away, you're going to go over to that seahorse, you're going to get in the right position that all takes a lot of movement. And you have to manipulate your buoyancy by exhaling, inhaling. That's causing you to kind of break the rhythm of your normal relaxed breathing style. And that's going to cut into your your your gas consumption quite a bit too.
Jay (23:12.8)
Hmm.
Scott Bauer (23:17.194)
Um, and then also you're going to get excited, especially if it's something really cool that you've never seen before. Um, and even me very recently, I saw, uh, I saw squid for the first time and I just about, uh, threw a hissy fit and, um, you know, that probably, that probably affected my gas consumption quite a bit. I was so excited to see it. It came right up into my lens and I couldn't believe the photograph that I was almost accidentally able to take of it. And, um, I've been.
Jay (23:35.83)
Ha ha.
Scott Bauer (23:46.102)
diving for years and I've never seen a squid surprisingly. This relative trip was the first time I've seen those. But yeah, you get excited and that cuts into it quite a bit.
Jay (23:50.625)
Wow, yeah.
Jay (23:54.417)
No, that's super interesting.
Jay (23:59.644)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, to add on to that idea, I think, you know, that's, it's just like any other piece of kit training it. And, and you go back to like, at least the way I approach diving or train was trained to approach diving was really around, like you start with how you're going to exit the dive first. Like, how do I get home safe if everything goes wrong?
Jay (24:25.64)
And so, so yeah, it is interesting. I, and I don't know if photography courses cover managing that piece of kit. You know, I mean, some of these cameras, I went diving, uh, last week with some folks that were really into the macro photography and some of these rigs are just incredible. I mean, like I said, they're as big as your, your, as a set of doubles in terms of, of the, the size of everything, the lights and the camera, the housing. And.
Scott Bauer (24:49.825)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (24:55.028)
everything else they have on top of it. And I know like, you know, I have a good friend, James Mott, who does the dive or the great dive podcast. And I remember we were in the water together and he was like, you know, talking about when he sets his camera down, he says a really heavy camera rig is what he's using right now. When he sets it down, he has to make sure, you know, he's ready with a big inhale. And if he needs to, you know, adjust his buoyancy, because he's, you know, he's gonna...
Jay (25:24.188)
or I mean a big exhale because he's gonna immediately, start to float up because his camera becomes part of his waiting, right? Even though it's not part of his waiting, it's not on his, it's part of his waiting because he's holding onto it all the time. So super interesting like to think about those aspects if you're getting into photography or you haven't thought about that safety perspective first is how do you.
Scott Bauer (25:31.274)
Oh yeah, because it's heavy, yeah.
Jay (25:49.372)
you know, manage it and train for, you know, what, what happens in an out of gas situation, an emergency situation, or like you said, in a valve roll off or something like that, that, Oh, you know, what do you do with the camera? You know, um, I loved that video. You, you posted of your camera that you had almost perfectly neutrally buoyant. You could just let it go and like, you know, but I think a lot of people.
Scott Bauer (26:10.415)
And that to me, that to me is a safety concern too. I think because of the point that you brought up, your camera should at least be somewhat buoyant. It doesn't have to be perfect like that, but it shouldn't be too heavy to where you feel like if you let go of it, you're going to shoot up. And I do realize that people that are really into macro photography, they want their rigs to be weighted quite a bit because they're shooting from a tripod. And I think the safest way to do that is to have a somewhat buoyant.
Scott Bauer (26:39.314)
camera rig even when you set it for macro but you put on the tripod and then you take a weight off your person and Clip it to the tripod then I do understand that when you take the weight off your person You're gonna be buoyant, but you should know to you know adjust your buoyancy as you're doing that But if you were to somehow in transport to wherever you were gonna go shoot at lose your camera then it wouldn't be you know, like you just lost a bunch of weight and I think that is a That's definitely an advantage to you know, getting your camera buoyant
Scott Bauer (27:08.758)
But the biggest reason to have it point is for stability when you're shooting video. And of course macro that doesn't apply but shooting wide it helps quite a bit.
Jay (27:18.048)
Yeah, interesting. Yeah, well, that's good. I mean, no, no, no, that's great. I mean, the skills there, I think too, and like I don't know, and I'm actually gonna ask that question of my agency now of like, well, in our photography course, do we talk about like managing kit? But it just dawned on me when we were talking about this or when we were prepping for this episode about like, oh yeah, that's a whole thing. It's like, you know, taking a dry suit in the water the first time, you know, there's some...
Scott Bauer (27:19.09)
I think I over guarded your point there.
Scott Bauer (27:47.682)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (27:47.72)
a level of training on that equipment that's required. So I like that you started with skills and I wanted to make sure we unpacked that piece of it before you got into color correction and some of the other things that are really important, but thanks for indulging me because I was like, yeah, this is a point I really wanna explore a little bit.
Scott Bauer (28:07.054)
Yeah, no, for sure. And I totally get that that you know, that side of the that side of the thing is is what you like to talk about. And that makes perfect sense because that's that's your deal, you know, the whole dive training thing and which I can segue into something that you might also like to is anything that involves diving with the team creating a plan and training to use certain types of equipment.
Scott Bauer (28:33.842)
I mentioned in the last one of these that we did, that that's something that I kind of aspire to wanna do, that's something that I wanna work up to because I'm definitely not there yet. But one photographer which you're very familiar with, Natalie Gibbs at Under the Jungle, I really like that type of work. It's really fascinating to me that they go into this place that alone just to go into that place requires specific training.
Scott Bauer (29:01.962)
specific use of equipment, but it also involves a team. They're going in there with a team. They're placing lights in very specific places. She has this idea of how the composition needs to look, how it needs to be lit, and there's communication going on underwater with that entire team on, you know, this diver needs to go over here in this position. They're gonna be the subject. We have these lights already placed over here, and to me that seems really fascinating. It's like you're going on a mission with this team.
Scott Bauer (29:30.134)
and you're coming back with that objective. And at the end of the day, it's this like really fun, creative thing. You're coming back with this piece of art. And I love that type of photography. And that's kind of more what I wanna get into down the road, and as I learn more and kind of grow into that.
Jay (29:47.496)
Yeah, that's cool. That's really cool. And I think too, maybe the, you know, we, not to, we can't, I think talk about all of it yet, but you and I have been doing a little bit of expedition planning, um, around a specific photography mission, a week long mission, um, to go capture some specific photos. And one of the things that it's, it's great to talk about as team members, you and I and the other team members that were involving
Jay (30:16.472)
is that safety aspect. Is like if, you know, we talked about, hey, look, we're gonna have, I think our plan originally was we're gonna have two divers and one safety diver, and we talked through and said like, well, really, we should have at least a safety diver per one photographer, right? Because that becomes a really important thing. And ideally, we'd have a team of three, right? Because look, something is as likely to go wrong on my rig as it is on your rig.
Jay (30:45.268)
Right? And so you need to be able to, even if you're taking the photos, be able to, you know, help me and vice versa. Right? And so it can't just be, I'm the safety diver because my rig is nothing's going to go wrong. And you, you know, I've got your back. Yes, that's the intent. But the reality is, you know, who knows, you know, those issues can occur to anybody. So it's interesting when you talk about.
Scott Bauer (30:55.67)
Yeah.
Scott Bauer (31:10.402)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (31:12.736)
team planning, even for a dive where you're taking the camera with you and you say, Oh, I really want to capture some photos of X. What is that teammate who doesn't have the camera? What's their responsibility in that, in that moment, right? In that dive.
Scott Bauer (31:29.61)
Yeah, that's a good point. Like if you have a first stage failure or somebody else does, is somebody there to receive your, you just, you know, somebody know that you're going to hand your camera over to them. They just need to grab it and take it off your hands. I wonder what the proper protocol is there. It'd be kind of interesting to talk to somebody that does tech training that also is a photographer.
Jay (31:45.416)
Well, if it's neutral, you just let go, right?
Jay (31:50.676)
Yeah, yeah, so, but yeah, I think that these things lead kind of back to the question, how do you take a good photo? Well, some of it becomes the personal skills and the familiarity with your equipment and so on and so forth. Part of it is the safety and planning for that as a team and having a team behind you, not only to set lights, but also from a safety perspective. And that the team that's diving is aware of the plan, that hey, Scott's gonna take some photos and we're gonna pause in this moment.
Jay (32:20.3)
to support him in that and then we'll move on. But I think those are good starting places. Maybe let's get into the color correction and maybe some of the technical considerations that make a good photo, or how do you take a good photo?
Scott Bauer (32:33.246)
Yeah, and that's one thing that I think is really important with underwater photography is the color and I think that's what most people actually get wrong too. There's not a very good understanding of it because, and for good reason too, because if you're learning photography, forget underwater, if you're learning photography there's a lot of YouTube channels and really good resources you can learn really quick, you know.
Jay (32:45.558)
Hmm.
Scott Bauer (33:00.646)
Um, if you're using the right resources is pretty easy to pick up. Um, it's definitely not rocket science, but, uh, color correction is one of those things that is uniquely different as soon as you go underwater and there's not a whole lot of YouTube channels that cover that there's, there's a few that I could think of, but you gotta really dig for him. And, uh, the reason for that being going to get a little scientific and I'm not a scientist, so if I get something wrong, you know, don't, don't kill me in the con the comments, but.
Scott Bauer (33:30.494)
So you have a you have a lay of a ray of sunlight that has all the colors of the rainbow baked into that one ray, right? And when that ray of sunlight shines to rain, it makes a rainbow, you know, because it's breaking apart all those different light rays. And that's why you see a rainbow, I guess something like that, you know, to that to that avail is soon it's the night. Well, yeah, and there's gold. Yeah, that's true.
Jay (33:51.676)
I thought it was because there was a pot of gold.
Jay (33:56.092)
Okay, all right, just making sure that's okay, good. Ha ha ha.
Scott Bauer (33:59.618)
But as soon as that ray of sunshine hits the ocean, hits the water, every foot or every inch that it passes through the water, it removes the colors in order of the rainbow. So it starts with the warmer colors. It starts with the red and then moves on down until you're left with nothing but the blues and the purples the deeper that you go. So that really long-winded explanation of what happens to color and light
Scott Bauer (34:29.326)
passes through water when you're diving, that really affects the camera's ability to do a really decent white balance. So there's a few different tricks and techniques that you can use to learn how to do that physically with your camera and with your lighting. But there's also a lot. And I mean quite a bit that you can do with Adobe Lightroom or any other editing platform that is really important to make sure that.
Scott Bauer (34:58.146)
You're getting good color correction in that post work because it makes you might not notice it at first Like if you if you take your take your GoPro shoot a shot 20 feet deep in Spring Lake you be like, okay This looks good. But if you color correct it properly, you'll be like, wow I didn't realize there's actually so much color in this photo that I would have neglected to bring out and That's just a technical aspect of something that You might be selling yourself short if you don't learn how to properly do that
Jay (35:28.78)
Do you think that also has something to do with the fact that when you are, let's just take like you're at 80 feet. So you've lost red, you've lost all those warmer colors that you were talking about. You got some blue and you got green, maybe. And so when you're in that environment and you're setting up the composition of the shot, you actually aren't capable of seeing those other colors in that moment.
Scott Bauer (35:39.714)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (35:58.132)
Like if you, with your own eyes.
Scott Bauer (35:58.678)
Well, it depends. This is very interesting. It depends because it depends on the artificial light that you bring down there. And that's also where it gets tricky, because your white balance might be set for the ambient light that's down there at 80 feet. And then you turn on your lights that look white to you, but to the way that your white balance is set, they're going to look purple or red or really weird orange.
Jay (36:07.794)
Ah, okay, okay.
Scott Bauer (36:24.782)
And that's where different tools come in, like ambient light filters. Like you'll see these blue ambient light filters that some people use if they're shooting with video lights. Cause I always shoot still frames with video lights because I'd like to shoot both. I don't use strobes. You get better results with strobes, but I want the ability to go from video to photo. But that's why you'll see those blue filters over my video lights is because you'll set the white balance to that ambient light down there at 80 feet.
Scott Bauer (36:51.958)
But those filters will enable the light to match that white balance. And that's just a mechanical trick that you can use that gives you a little bit of a leg up when it comes to post-processing, because you still need to post-process after that. But it definitely keeps you from having to push it too far in post to where you start to degrade the file. And that's a whole other technical thing to dive into.
Scott Bauer (37:23.075)
But yeah, there's all sorts of things that go into it and it could get really complicated. It doesn't necessarily have to be. But I think like basic color correction is really important.
Jay (37:33.432)
That's good. That's good. And it's kind of like, you know, to maybe tie a bow around all of that that you were talking about, you know, if you think about you're listening out there and you think about, you know, your open or advanced open water, your deep dives or whatever it would be. Remember, you know, maybe your instructor brought down a slate and then shined a light on that slate. When you looked at it without the light, it was, you know,
Scott Bauer (37:54.094)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (37:57.008)
all colors look gray and then all of a sudden blue or blue and then all of a sudden you shine the light and you see oh there's red and there's yellow and there's orange coming back. And it's the I mean, really basic rate.
Scott Bauer (38:03.274)
Yeah. Yeah. Because if you think about it, those, the light from that slate is only moving a few feet. Whereas the light from the sunlight that's penetrating all 80 feet down to where you are.
Jay (38:14.888)
Right. Yeah. I know it's super interesting. I mean, it's one of those things that, it's that going back to how do you take a good photo? Well, it's considering the environment and then setting up the gear in the right way so that it can address that environment. So, I mean, I imagine if you're taking photos in 10 feet of water on a super shallow reef, kind of the way you're talking about the substrate with being able to see the surface of the water and the subject in the middle,
Scott Bauer (38:38.018)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Bauer (38:41.718)
Yeah.
Jay (38:43.86)
You know, it's a different consideration than if, you know, you're going to go capture the six skill shark and you know, you've got to go to 160 feet to even start to see it, right. Um, that would be a different consideration. So.
Scott Bauer (38:56.042)
That's when you have to pay the 6-Gill Shark to come up to the shadows for you.
Jay (39:01.744)
Yeah, you pay him in blood. Yeah.
Scott Bauer (39:01.934)
Candice Ardennes, whatever he likes. But I think the best photos are taken in 10 feet of water, to be honest. I think that's where you get the best of everything. And sure, I mean, there's definitely a lot of stuff that might be cool to photograph down deep, but as far as wide angle is concerned, and as far as what I find attractive, I love the shallow stuff.
Jay (39:26.356)
Hmm, yeah. All right, good. So in post and editing, focus on color correction as a key skill. From a technical aspect, set your gear up correctly and second nature and from a skill perspective, hey, you gotta train this stuff from a safety perspective, from a gear management perspective and kind of situational awareness. And then also from a personal skills perspective, your buoyancy, your trim, your balance, your propulsion.
Jay (39:55.568)
all those things. And now if you add all of that up, it equals how do you take a good photo in terms of like
Scott Bauer (40:03.218)
No, I think that equals, I think that equals the start because once you're doing all of that, then you have to somehow find the mental capacity to put together a good composition and then do all the other things that we're talking about as far as telling a story. I think that's what, I think that's what makes it so hard. And I think that's why for me it happens by accident. And it's just like, I just have to shoot as much as I possibly can. And whoops, that worked out, you know.
Jay (40:31.008)
Well, that's good. I mean, that's good. It's a really awesome discussion. I know I learned a lot and I didn't know and I wouldn't have considered really, right? I wouldn't have thought about in producing those shots. So that's good. Anything else to add before we move on to the next segment?
Scott Bauer (40:49.854)
Here we go again. I don't have any dad jokes that ready
Jay (40:54.474)
No, I was looking for, I just want to make sure, I'll look at you and say, do we need to say anything else when it comes to good photographs? I don't know.
Scott Bauer (40:55.982)
Yeah, no, I got you. Okay, yeah, I don't.
Jay (41:06.3)
No, okay, good. All right. So
Scott Bauer (41:06.478)
That's kind of like a job interview where they're like, do you have any questions that you know that you're supposed to ask a question?
Jay (41:12.892)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'll mark this one down. Daniel can edit out
Scott Bauer (41:16.75)
Hahaha
Jay (41:18.664)
All right, well, that's good. That was a really good segment and talking about, you know, how do you take that photograph? And there's so much that goes into it to even get set up. That's why I think like the accidental photograph where you're like, well, like I have one accidental photograph that I really like, but it really came from pulling from a GoPro video, pulling a still from it. And the reason I like it is because like, yeah, it's like...
Scott Bauer (41:42.734)
That's how a lot of people do it. Yeah.
Jay (41:47.6)
it really captured the moment for me, which I call it like, it was like a year or two ago, like capturing that scuba moment of like, I felt completely like I was one with the water in that moment, for whatever reason. I remember I had that moment and it was just like, and then I woke up from it, however long it was, it was like one of those like, out of out of body out of dry suit moments where you're like, whoa, oh, wow. And then you wake up and go, oh, I'm diving. There was just totally balanced.
Jay (42:15.84)
felt like I was completely weightless as one with the water and in a beautiful environment. And there was a photo of that with like, you know, that my instructor captured a video and I pulled a still from it that was like, that's, that's it, you know, and, um, and, you know, you really communicate it to me in that way. And so it's, it's interesting. Some of those can be accidental, but, but in prepping for it, all these things need to be somewhat in place that you talked about.
Jay (42:45.16)
in order to get that happenstance photo that came through. Even if you're shooting photos and you have no lights and you're at 80 feet, there's no way you're gonna get that happenstance photo, because it's gonna be a bunch of dark black blue color. So I think it's interesting to talk about the, or that you talked about all of the setup that just gets you to a place where you have then the opportunity.
Jay (43:12.712)
capture that moment or to capture that subject in the right way and to get the right composition all those things so that's great.
Scott Bauer (43:18.478)
I think that's a good way to describe it. Yeah, it gives you the, it just gets you there to have that opportunity.
Jay (43:24.916)
Yeah. Yeah. And then hopefully magic happens. Right. And then you, and then you're going from there. All right. Well, good. Well maybe we can wrap this one up with some advice like we always do. So what advice do you have for divers wanting to kind of capture that perfect shot? So are there, I think the tip, uh, you know, around last time around, buy the housing first. Then the camera is really valuable. Like, are any, any of those tips or
Jay (43:53.888)
tricks that you can share. Are there things to avoid that are absolute no's? Like don't do this in your photography. I did it, stinks, don't do it. Are there those sorts of keys to the game?
Scott Bauer (44:03.406)
Yeah!
Scott Bauer (44:06.094)
think one of the biggest things to avoid is getting involved in anything that causes you to have to shoot what you what you're not interested in. For example, I used to shoot I tried to shoot real estate photography and I that almost got me out of photography. I just almost didn't even want to do it anymore. But my advice if you're trying to get you know, the perfect shot is identify what it is that you love and that you want to shoot and then
Jay (44:23.58)
Ha ha!
Scott Bauer (44:34.83)
You'll figure it out from there, I think.
Jay (44:38.92)
Yeah, that's good advice. Any little technical tips, other than color balance and all the things that we already talked about?
Scott Bauer (44:47.342)
Yeah, I mean, that's a hard one because it all it's so particular into exactly what it is that you're trying to shoot, you know, if you're trying to capture a certain animal or if you're shooting portraits of people, you know, there's so many different ways to do things. I would say, though, you know, if you're trying to, if you're trying to tell a story, if you're trying to, you know, come back with with an image that that not just looks good, but tells a story.
Scott Bauer (45:16.526)
you have to get the basics of everything else down first. You have to free up your mental capacity enough in order to be able to put that together in your head. And that to me is the most challenging thing with underwater photography. And I think what is what makes it so hard.
Jay (45:33.64)
Yeah, I think that's good advice. Like I really don't have a lot of experience or expertise in this area at all. But I can say that I think that the preparation work for anything, right, comes back down to what are you trying to achieve, what needs to be in place to achieve that, and then are those things ready to go when that moment presents itself? And so I think, you know,
Jay (46:03.916)
practice and practice and practice and lots, like you said, lots and lots of bad photo. What's the, you know, everyone always quotes that Michael Jordan, you know, quote, you know, how many shots he's missed, you know, to make one. I mean, I was Wayne Gretzky. Gosh, now I'm butchering the probably one that was used quotes ever. My brain's not working. But it's probably like, if you think about photographs just on the spot here, if you think about for all the photos, like behind you, if you're watching the video or some of Scott's.
Jay (46:33.78)
you know, photos that he's had as art prints. And I would say those you would say were good or perfect shots for you and they represent something. So if you look at one of them, I don't know, pick one of them, and you think about how many photos that I have to take to get to that one that I actually paid to print and put on the wall and you know, all that stuff, what would be your ratio, you think, number of photos to number of prints?
Scott Bauer (46:56.11)
Oh, that's interesting. Like that one right above my head and you probably can't see it. It's a, it's an angel fish. Um, that's kind of peeking at me from behind that rock. First off, it's hard to get an angel fish to look at you for some reason, but I remember hanging around that rock with that fish for about 20 minutes and there's probably a hundred exposures that were taken, probably more actually. Um, but yeah, no, that's, that's kind of the way it works for me. It, you know, there's at least, uh,
Jay (47:01.759)
Yeah.
Jay (47:11.805)
Hmm.
Scott Bauer (47:25.486)
You know, 100 or so exposures. Of course it's on that high speed mode, you know, machine gun mode. You're pulling the trigger and letting the fish move through the frame and you're picking the best one. But that's kind of how it looks. You know, that's kind of how that works, at least in the way that I do things. And you kind of, you have that composition built and you hold the frame there and you let the subject swim through the, swim through the frame.
Jay (47:44.381)
Hmm.
Scott Bauer (47:52.366)
And I just, I liked the angle that the fish was looking at me in that one, that one shot.
Jay (47:53.361)
100 to one
Jay (47:57.34)
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, and there's probably even before you learned to put it in machine gun mode and to get the lighting right for that spot, there's probably another 500 photos. I just throw a number out there, you know.
Scott Bauer (48:07.438)
Yeah. Yeah, it's like you get everything set up, and then you go into machine gun mode. Whatever you want to call it.
Jay (48:13.88)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, you know, it's interesting because, uh, it's kind of like anything. You have to take a lot of bad photos to get a good one. And I think that's unique in some ways to underwater photography. Um, because on, on the surface, well, on the surface, like we live underwater. It's how I'm framing it. Is that what I mean? But when you're taking photos, not underwater, maybe we'll put it that way. You know, there is kind of this instant feedback loop.
Scott Bauer (48:34.67)
Yeah.
Jay (48:43.64)
of reviewing them and seeing them for what they are and even talking about them and all those things, which doesn't happen. In underwater photography, you go under and you're under for, you know, probably minimum for people 30 minutes, but probably closer to an hour.
Scott Bauer (48:57.006)
And you don't really want to get lost into looking at the viewfinder, you know, that's always a bad, bad idea.
Jay (49:03.228)
Yeah, so you don't have that feedback necessarily. You don't really know what you have until you plug it in and download the photos and start looking at each one. I mean, I guess you can go through the viewfinder, but I'm guessing you don't really know what you have until you get home after the dive trip, when you're home from the boat and all that stuff. So, yeah, I guess you can go through the viewfinder, but I'm guessing you don't really know what you have until you get home after the dive trip,
Scott Bauer (49:05.262)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Bauer (49:22.51)
Mm hmm. That's the way I feel about it too. And I know that some some people have better equipment, they have you know, external monitors. And you know, of course, it's gonna have a bigger screen, you might get a more instant playback that way, but I don't have that. And that's the way it is for me. I don't really know fully what I have. And so I get home and look at it on the on the computer when I'm backing everything up.
Jay (49:46.824)
And are you thinking to yourself, like I know I took these photos and I think I nailed this one. And then you're scrolling through them all and you're like, boom.
Scott Bauer (49:52.366)
Mm-hmm. Yeah is you have an idea and you're kind of hoping kind of like the film days you're kind of hoping that it came out the way that you thought it did and Videos the worst because I don't have an external monitor and there's so many things that go wrong with video You can have a little flake of dust On the inside of your dome port and with a still frame You can just clone that out really easy fix with videos just like god that just ruined the whole the whole clip
Jay (49:59.997)
Yep.
Jay (50:20.126)
The whole thing, yeah.
Scott Bauer (50:20.43)
or a thumb print or something like that, you know, and videos hard, it's really hard. And unlike unlike still frames where everything can be shown in one frame, a video if you're gonna make a sequence of a cleaner fish cleaning the gills of a moray eel, you want to get a you know, you want to get one shot of it looking, you know, looking one way and then you want to maybe zoom in on the Gobi and maybe you want to get another angle and
Scott Bauer (50:46.062)
you know, multiple views of the same thing happening kind of tells the story a little bit better in video. Whereas with photography, it's all done in one frame.
Jay (50:53.972)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, good, good stuff. I think we'll wrap this one up there. It's a really good discussion today on this stuff and hopefully it was entertaining and enlightening and maybe you learned something. I know I did. So awesome. So today we focused on the topic, what makes a good underwater photograph. And I think we came to a lot of it has to do with not only the photograph itself, the outcome.
Jay (51:22.624)
but the preparation of the diver and the preparation for the photo and all those things, which I think is really interesting. But we would love to hear your thoughts out there. What's your favorite photo you've taken and why? What makes a great photo versus just an all right photo in your mind and the ones that you've seen? And how have you approached taking that perfect photo? So reach out to Scott or I. Scott, you wanna tell them how to get ahold of you again on Insta or on YouTube? So, we're gonna go ahead and get started.
Scott Bauer (51:47.502)
Yeah, Instagram is gonna be Scott Bauer below and then my YouTube channel is the same name Scott Bauer below and it's as we joked around earlier Bauer's B-A-U-E-R just like Eddie Bauer, Jack Bauer, Bauer Skates. What are some other Bauer's?
Jay (52:03.828)
There you go, any of the Bowers and the Scott Bower, below though, below, on Instagram. Just go there, check it out for sure. Well good, and if you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you subscribe wherever you get your podcast so that you get notified whenever new episodes drop. So whether that be on Spotify or Apple Music or iHeartRadio, wherever you get that. We're gonna make sure that you can be a part of this community. Any parting thoughts, Scott, before we sign off on?
Jay (52:33.428)
this episode here.
Scott Bauer (52:35.63)
um... i would say work on your trim
Jay (52:39.532)
Work on your ship. Me? Hey, what are you talking about? I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
Scott Bauer (52:41.262)
No, no, not you. Just everyone in general that wants to get into underwater photography. I would focus on trim and how you propel yourself first. I think that's it's a good place to start.
Jay (52:51.273)
Yeah.
Jay (52:54.16)
That's a good one and I would say to the other thing, I may be parting thought wise and starting and all this. And I know it already happens naturally, but talk to other photographers, right? Talk to people that have been around, how do they do it? Learn some of those, you know, try not to take the hard knock life of learning and gain experience from people like Scott, who have done it, who are still learning and open to learn.
Jay (53:21.536)
but have things that can really help you. And so I think always looking to others to talk through that stuff is always a good thing. So good episodes Scott, enjoy this one.
Jay (53:33.576)
All right, thanks for joining us today. And we look forward to having you back on the next episode of the dive table.
