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May 8, 2023

Diving Wet or Dry with Jack Der of DUI S2E7 Part II

Diving Wet or Dry with Jack Der of DUI S2E7 Part II


Jack Der (46:53.050)
I'm going to go to bed. I'm going to go to bed.

Jack Der (47:11.070)
Yeah, that is a big thing because remember, everyone's supposedly servicing their regulators every year, but how often do people service their dry suits? When a dry suit's brand new, yeah, maybe you can skip the first year, but as the material, remember, it's material, it starts wearing out, you may walk on it, step on it, fold it, slam it in the car door, whatever, or in the tailgate of your pickup.

Jack Der (47:41.130)
start looking at maintaining it. So I do recommend at a certain point sending your dry suit into a, when I say a valid, someone that you trust that works on dry suits to make sure they they give it a once-over look at it. They'll fix some of the seams, they'll fix some of the weak points on the suit. You'll see those points on that suit because for example if you're diving a backplate

Jack Der (48:11.810)
and you have a crotch strap on your harness and you tend to walk around a lot, that webbing is like a saw. It starts cutting through the material. So is that part of the suit that you need to check to make sure it's not wearing the material up? So visual inspections help with that stuff, send it in yearly. If you do put your dry suit away during the summer months type of thing and people

in my garage. You know, to me there's a couple things in that statement that kind of scare me. The first one, it's in the garage. Your dry suit probably has latex seals on it. The material, the rubber layer between the tri-laminates, butyl rubber. So you have all these things that don't like ozone. And your

Jack Der (49:11.430)
whatever's the washing drying machine in your garage, these are all things that will break down those latex like products. When I say break down you could you'll see either a visual inspection right away is like look at the neck seal if you have latex seals. If you stretch a little bit and start has all these little cracks in there that's breaking down you need to replace it.

Jack Der (49:41.610)
The other thing that happens is that breaking down doesn't necessarily mean dry and cracky. It could turn into goo. Literally, it's like glue. I've seen these super pretty dry suits. They left the neck seal on. It's left in storage and they pull it out. The latex just bonded to this pretty color material that they had on their suit. There's no way of getting that out. It's just like tar.

Jay (49:49.652)

Jay (50:06.991)

Jack Der (50:11.110)
in a garage, maybe not the best thing. Some people don't have options. The other thing is when you're hanging a dry suit up, that's fine for short term, but for long term, think about just the weight of the suit itself, pulling on not just the seams, it's all stitched together, right? So a quality dry suit will have the material overlapped and they run a double stitch on it. Hopefully it's a locking stitch, so if a thread does break,

Jay (50:37.770)

Jack Der (50:41.150)
It doesn't go, you know, you see those cartoons with the cat and the sweater. So it doesn't go, you know, just pull all the way out. So you want these locking stitches. So when your suit's hanging there, that's a lot of pressure over time pulling down on those seams and then pulling down on the part of the suit that's keeping you dry, which is the the seam seals that go over the threads. That's a lot of weight.

Jay (50:46.152)

Jack Der (51:11.130)
The best way to store it in, so this is the ultimate answer, by the way, the best way to store your dry suit is to use your dry suit. But if you do have to store it, I would say fold it gently, don't crush it, and then store it in a place that's cool and dry, where you're limited by those ozone type generating equipment.

Jay (51:19.970)
There you go, exactly. Ha ha ha.

Jay (51:39.950)
So don't put it in the water heater closet.

Jack Der (51:41.050)
your yeah and letting your car run in the garage at the garage closed is not good for it. So and then of course moving the suit around a little bit because depends on the kind of suit it is you can create these permanent folds in some of the seams which is really actually bad for the taped seam suits. Tape seam

Jack Der (52:11.510)
You have two dissimilar pieces of material that will flex differently. Over time, they will separate from each other. I mean, it just happens. So that's that part, right? Distorting it. Now, it comes down to... Okay, I was going to get into the daily use.

Jay (52:28.010)
Yeah, so wait, I have some questions. I have some questions. So yeah, yeah. So, so okay, storing it, maybe not long-term, but short-term. So I know there are different schools of thought because I've heard them both. I'm curious to your opinion on, let's say short-term being under a month, right? Let's just put a number there. Do you hang your suit upside down from the boots or do you hang your suit right side up from the shoulders

Jay (52:58.074)
a hanger.

Jack Der (52:59.793)
Uh, neither.

Jay (53:01.972)
Neither, okay.

Jack Der (53:04.811)
I subscribe to the over the rack method. So I have like a clothing rack bar that's padded and I just kind of go half over. So it's not taking the full weight. And truly if it's going to be a month, I probably had folded it up and put it on the shelf. But again, going back to my rule, number one, I dive my dry suit.

Jay (53:08.214)

Jay (53:17.732)

Jay (53:26.490)
Yep. Yeah. So I store mine. That's interesting because I dive pretty much every, every week. I mean, I try to dive every week, if not twice a week. But I store mine boots from hanging from the boots on on a rack for that week. But my reasoning is a little bit different. And that is because I've been living in Texas. You know, the number one rule before you put on boots is check your boots. And I've heard

Jack Der (53:27.955)
I swear.

Jack Der (53:53.671)

Jay (53:57.310)
literally of folks that have zipped up their dry suit and didn't realize creepy crawlies got in there. And then the dive realized that it happened. And I just, that thought just, and they could still get in there hanging upside down, but I take the thing off and there's an opening, you know, before I fold it and put it in the bag to get everything out of it rather than something crawling down into a boot that gets hidden away. And I heard that one story and it just stuck with me that like, I don't

on my suit and there's a scorpion that's diving with me like that does not sound like fun so I store my suit upside down

Jack Der (54:31.610)
Okay, I... Okay, so that fear of the scorpion thing? I was in Mexico and that actually happened to somebody.

Jay (54:40.614)
Oh my gosh.

Jack Der (54:42.870)
And then the crazy thing was it was like this two inch, two, three inch long scorpion. It was like big. It was in the bottom of his boot, whatever. And he said that he didn't feel it. And he, after he took it out, I mean, it was dead as squished, but he had like two like punctures in his foot and I'm like, dude, are you going to die?

Jay (55:11.953)

Jack Der (55:13.390)
I'm like, oh my god. But apparently it didn't affect him. So that was good. But then he also saved this thing and I was like showing, he's showing around the shop and I'm just like in horror. And I'm like, I'm knocking out my shoes. Oh my god.

Jay (55:17.270)

Jay (55:27.753)

Jack Der (55:31.490)
So yeah, that has happened. I'm just saying, I saw it, witnessed it. Okay, but going back to the question, inside, outside, upside down.

Jay (55:35.433)

Jack Der (55:42.830)
Yeah, if it's just storing it, I'm not so worried about upside down or right side up. But if you're drying it, it's a different story. So drying it, obviously, one of the things that everyone really confuses about a dry suit and they complain, they go, well, your dry suit, you're always wet. You know, that's the statement you hear all the time. Like, it's, you know, a brand new dry suit, you're going to be all wet. I'm like, hmm,

Jay (55:52.953)

Jack Der (56:13.550)
It could be condensation because everybody sweats, right? So when you take off your dry suit after a dive whether it's hot cold out or whatever There's gonna be some sort of moisture in your suit So obviously if it's flooded you want to hang it upside down so the water drips out but The idea is to dry the inside of your suit out so in my daily diving

Jay (56:16.792)

Jack Der (56:42.810)
length of time. So when I'm done with diving, I will rinse off the outside of the suit to get the salt water off or whatever strawberry anemone goo that's all stuck all over the sleeves and kind of stinky. I rinse all that off. I will then throw it over my half rack and let it drip dry. Once it kind of done doing the drip dry, you know the main water like before I go to bed, I will go back

Jay (56:56.392)

Jack Der (57:12.950)
as far as you can. It's hard with some boots to get all the way inside up, but the purpose of that is to dry off the inside of the suit. Your suit will get funky if you don't do that. So then I will let it dry inside out so the inside's always dry. Then I will reflip it back, for example, the next morning. If the outside's a little wet, damp, oh well. It's on the outside. It's not on the inside, the part that I want to be dry with.

Jay (57:20.591)

Jay (57:42.810)
Right, right, okay, good. Good, good, no, it's just good to know how you treat your suit, I'm learning things here. All right, another question along the same line, which is, yes, you're right, your suit will get funky. Either it gets funky because you sweat and you stink and it just gets in there and at some point your suit's funky, or you're a dummy like me and you forgot to open your pee valve one time and then it gets nice and stinky,

Jack Der (57:43.890)
So that's kind of like half and half.

Jay (58:12.790)
So I didn't realize when I first got my dry suit that there is an open and in a closed position for your suit or for that valve. But how do you, Jack Durr, then take your suit if it's funky and get the funk out?

Jack Der (58:30.410)
Um, about once a month or so, I will rinse out the inside of my suit. And usually that works well enough for me. Um, cause I am more on the preventative maintenance side of it. Um, if you're going to clean the inside of the suit, um, there's a couple of things you shouldn't do. One is you have to think that inside there's the seams that are keeping you dry.

Jack Der (59:00.150)
have to have repair work done. You don't want to have some sort of weird chemical embedded into the fibers on the inside of the suit, because that could possibly compromise how well your suit bonds with the new sealant. So use water. Water's safe. If you have to use some sort of cleaning product, we suggest that you use Simply Green,

Jay (59:16.681)

Jack Der (59:30.710)
You know, it's not harmful. It's not full of chemicals. I Mean, that's the basic thing I mean because they don't want to use like a shampoo with all the lotions and and stuff like that and because that's that's actually Not good for the material. I mean it helps with the smell but so going back to Like how do you make it so it's not funky so to speak?

Jay (59:43.555)

Jack Der (59:56.170)
Wash your undergarments.

Jack Der (01:00:01.850)
And also wear more than just one undergarment. You wear a base layer, and the base layer is kind of a wicking layer. It keeps the moisture away from your skin. But that wicking layer is also the layer that absorbs all the oils from your skin. So therefore your undergarments don't get as stinky. Then that doesn't translate into rubbing on the inside of your suit. So hopefully the condensations just from the perspiration condensensing

Jay (01:00:16.741)

Jack Der (01:00:31.210)
condensation on the inside of the suit. So that's just basically just water. So hopefully that makes it less stinky. If you go dry gloves, by the way, I don't know. Sometimes dry gloves, they are just like wet suit booties. I swear they put something in there that makes it like, no matter what you do, it's gonna stink eventually. So anyways, I have dry gloves.

Jay (01:00:34.912)

Jay (01:00:54.376)
Ha ha!

Jack Der (01:01:01.130)
and I make sure those are sitting out, getting air circulating in them because I don't like the inside of the glove to get funky. But as far as liners go and undergarments, I cheat, I wash my stuff constantly.

Jay (01:01:08.292)

Jay (01:01:16.110)
Yeah, no, I mean, and it's good advice because like, so for example, if you're going to go travel with your dry suit, um, one of the things I do is I have two identical sets of, of a base layer. And so what I'll do is wear the first one the first day, right. And then depending on the situation, if I'm going to add an Airbnb, great. I have a washer and dryer right there. Right. And so I make sure that I can use that and I wash them, but there's been

where you don't have a washer and dryer, where you have the sink. And of course, if you wash your undergarments in the sink and try to dry them overnight, so you're ready for the boat at eight in the morning, the next morning, you're going to have wet, you know, a base layer. So that's why I packed two pairs of identical base layers with me when I travel is that, OK, well, it'll dry throughout the course of a day after I wash it. And then I just cycle those back and forth

Jay (01:02:16.150)
right? So yeah, I agree. I think making sure you wash your stuff, socks included. I mean, I'm kind of a cheater anyways, when it comes to that stuff. I wear like Under Armour, you know, 3.0 base layer stuff. I wear my Lakers socks. I always think it's funny. Like I have these wool Lakers socks that people see on a dive boat and they're like, what are you wearing? Like, man, these things keep my feet perfect. They're not too hot. They're not too cold. I love my little wool

Jack Der (01:02:33.850)
Thanks for watching!

Jay (01:02:46.790)
But I have multiple pairs of them so that I can wash overnight and let dry for a full day before I have to use it again. And that's a good thing to throw in your dive trip bag is a little thing of simple green or whatever it would be that you're going to wash your undergarments in overnight whenever you're on a trip. So these are all really good trips. What do you think of, I mean, I've seen products out there like Sink the Sink, Sink the Stink, other things.

Jay (01:03:15.990)
stuff that people have used.

Jack Der (01:03:18.910)
I'm not, maybe I'm a bad example with that. I haven't used most of those other ones because it's one of those things where I do listen to some people at work that have been, you know, at DUI for 30 years plus, they're like, and I go, oh, should they, I get the look like, what are you thinking? Just use this. And I'm like, okay. So, so there's times where I just listen to their advice.

Jay (01:03:41.533)

Jack Der (01:03:48.470)
So there could be other products out there, but definitely look for things that are not gonna leave harmful chemicals, residue on the suit, or on the suit or the undergarments. I may throw a little disclaimer here on undergarments. Not all undergarments can be washed exactly the same. There's different materials of undergarments, the fleece type ones, they're like everything

Jack Der (01:04:18.250)
dryer, all that stuff. But be aware that every time you wash it, it is breaking down over time. So one of the things is, it's kind of funny, you can buy the exact same undergarment a year or two later and the new one's always going to be warmer because it hasn't been broken down yet. But there's materials out there and some of the undergarments that don't take very well to heat. The fibers inside

Jack Der (01:04:48.070)
with heat. You know the dryer, hot water. So there's some things they have to be careful. So make sure you are are cautious or read the directions on washing that. And then I do have this, it's kind of it's like my nightmare story. There's in San Diego there's a boat that they have a dryer on the deck. It's beautiful right? Because you always got someone there they wash their clothes or they use

Jack Der (01:05:19.491)
Whenever I'm hosting the dive boat and I'm on that boat, I'm like, okay people, rule number one, don't put your socks in the dryer. And they're like, but they're wet. I'm like, do them at another time because it never fails. You know, you'll get that, your undergarments might be a little damp, so you're gonna throw them in there just to get, you know, to dry them off, you know, from the condensation, right? Instead of just hanging up, it's because you want to put on these

warm, toasty undergarments are all nice and warm. And then you pull it out and you go, oh, it smells like someone's stinky socks. It's just a nightmare. So that is why I always bring multiple undergarments with me because there's always, sorry, there's always, I apologize if you're that guy or that person. There's always a person that will still put their stinky socks in the dryer.

Jay (01:05:54.662)
Smells like a sock.

Jay (01:06:04.274)
There you go.

Jay (01:06:16.650)
My Laker socks are going in there when we go diving together. I don't care. No. And I think maybe this is another good little, we're kind of in the tips and tricks portion of this, the last piece of it here. But when it does come to our undergarments, since we're on the subject of stinky ones, you know, I think too, I get the question a lot around undergarments of, well, how do I select those?

Jack Der (01:06:20.450)
Thanks for watching!

Jay (01:06:46.650)
the second cohost of the season has a great video out there about that. But essentially what the long and short advice I give, and I'm curious your advice here on selecting undergarments, is thinking about, again, if you're going to go to the snow, or if you've been in the snow, the strategy is always to layer up to the point that you will be comfortable. Right? So that might start with a base layer and then thermal layer and then so on and so forth,

Jay (01:07:16.270)
going to be out in the snow. And I say apply the same principle to your dry suit, right, when it comes to undergarments, which is, you know, if you tend to get very cold on that dive, then you need to add more layers to your, whatever you're wearing, you need more. If you're overheating a bit or you're sweating a bit too much, then you need to strip off a layer, right? So it's the same basic principle of layering, but it just comes back down to dependent on

Jay (01:07:46.270)
body is reacting in that environment that you might need a little bit more or a little bit less based on your undergarments. And I, and I'm, this is no hit to any manufacturer out there. Because I think that there are some great undergarments that are designed for diving and that, that I think it's more designed for the warmth and to work with or conjunction with your dry suit, right? To fit well.

Jay (01:08:16.310)
you could buy a pair of sweats and a sweatshirt from, you know, your favorite sports team and that's a layer. And so like that might be all you need. So that's, that's my opinion on my user's side opinion on undergarments and, um, and how I kind of approach it. I'm curious what your, where you get with like how important the name brand on the undergarment is and how important the choice of materials and so on and so forth. I just kind of say,

Jack Der (01:08:29.750)

Jack Der (01:08:41.192)

Jay (01:08:46.270)
You'll be fine.

Jack Der (01:08:48.110)
Okay, it's a good question. I'm gonna go take a step backwards though. Remember that first question of what do you plan on doing for your diving? When you have your dry suit, not everybody's seen the movie, but the Christmas story, you know how the little brother comes out and his arms are like, ah, he can't move because his mom put so many layers on underneath.

Jay (01:09:10.152)
It's like the best part of the movie when he gets pushed over and he can't like he can't get up.

Jack Der (01:09:14.010)
Can't believe he's just laying there going, just kicking. So.

Jay (01:09:17.530)
What's so funny is first time I ever saw that movie was this last Christmas. And I so it's so sad to admit that. But for whatever reason, I just never watched the movie. And so this last Christmas, I saw it for the first time and I laughed my head off. I thought I was hilarious.

Jack Der (01:09:32.990)
Well, the same principle applies to dry suits. So knowing where you're gonna be diving, you wanna have your dry suit have enough room underneath it to accommodate the undergarments. Because I always get the question is, which dry suits the warmest? And I'm like, well, the material it has different durabilities, it's the undergarments that keep you warm. The dry suits job is to keep you dry.

Jay (01:09:59.712)

Jack Der (01:10:02.950)
Right? So knowing that it's keeping you dry, I mean, some material being thicker, obviously just from a pure physics standpoint, thicker material, the heat loss is a little bit slower because it's thicker material, et cetera. But in the end, it's the undergarments that keep you warm. So exactly what you said, I subscribe to the layering method. My dry suit is sized personally so I can wear the thickest undergarments

Jack Der (01:10:33.190)
into it. So when I wear that in the Bahamas I'm just wearing like a wicking layer. The suit looks big on me but yet if I come to San Diego and I start laying it up because the temperature is 50 degrees or colder the suit starts looking better so it fits because I don't want to have it so it's so tight that I am that kid just going I can't move. That's an unsafe situation right? You can't you can't reach your valves you can't. So there is some responsibility

Jay (01:10:54.890)

Jay (01:11:00.970)

Jack Der (01:11:04.171)
doing that properly so you can move. You need to have that full range of motion to be safe. So layering is good. That's a good thing. I want to contradict one little thing.

Jack Der (01:11:18.170)
In a real cold environment, not every layer underneath is necessarily good. I don't say just go out and get a sweatshirt, because a sweatshirt is probably made out of cotton. Cotton is a bad insulator if it gets wet. So you want to look at materials that keep you warm, even when they're wet. So those materials are, from the natural end, would be like a wool. And then on the synthetic side, it's

Jay (01:11:18.870)

Jay (01:11:26.370)

Jay (01:11:34.490)

Jack Der (01:11:48.130)
fleece material. Those will still keep your body semi-warm even though there's water inside. It kind of takes on that wetsuit principle that your body starts heating up the water next to your body so to speak in that case. But you want something that does that. And yes there are specifically designed under garments for diving. I mean you hear this all the time. People go, oh I went to REI

garment it's 300 grain gram whatever material and it comes back and it's this paper thin shirt. I'm like, wow that's nice, but you could have bought a 300 gram undergarment for diving and it'll be like a quarter inch thick. The difference is is the loft of those grains because it's the air that keeps you warm. So in conjunction with that you also have to look at how much does it

Jay (01:12:25.613)

Jay (01:12:41.854)

Jack Der (01:12:48.250)
the air compression around your suit will compress in, you get the squeeze. If that material squeezes too much, you lose the insulating properties. So the diving undergarments have, I would say, less compression than a normal, you know, regular, everyday hiking, you know, sweatshirt type of thing. They're designed

Jay (01:13:15.432)
Right, right.

Jack Der (01:13:18.050)
not necessarily design, chosen the material that's less compression. Even at DUI, we have this little, those micrometers that test the thickness. So everything's tested, but under how much pressure does it compress down to, and is that going to be the right thermal properties? So again, going back to that layering. And the other question I always get is, I'm diving in 60 degree water.

Jay (01:13:28.251)

Jay (01:13:37.133)

Jack Der (01:13:49.611)
And I answer back, I go, how tolerant are you to cold? I have friends that will dive the thickest undergarments in that same six degree water, and I'm like, hmm, I might dive a 150 undergarment, and they're diving a 450. It's just, what are you personally tolerant to? And then having that ability to layer to those cold, you know, either warm or cold,

Jay (01:13:53.575)

Jay (01:14:05.754)

Jack Der (01:14:18.210)
run tailored to what you're going to dive. I mean when I say I bring two undergarments with me on a dive trip, it's actually more than that because I'll bring the two undergarments, I'll bring a vest, I'll bring a bunch of stuff because I don't know what it will be. I may be colder for the night dive, so I'll put on the vest. You know, I'll add those layers and that's the best

Jay (01:14:21.577)

Jay (01:14:40.191)

Jack Der (01:14:48.810)
the latest craze, which is not really latest, but it's very popular as people are going towards the electric or active heating undergarments. DUI was a pioneer in that. We kind of are not pursuing that at this time, although we've done a bunch of stuff for the military recently. We just haven't made a consumer version of it, but the active heating, the battery,

Jay (01:14:59.275)

Jack Der (01:15:18.150)
they really do help. And I'm seeing a lot of technical divers going that route because if they're doing a half an hour of decompression hanging there, having that burst of heat can help your saturation levels dissipate faster and easier and you're more comfortable not sitting there shaking, right? So the active heating does have a place, especially for some of the divers that

Jay (01:15:19.955)

Jay (01:15:41.370)
Right, right.

Jay (01:15:47.095)

Jack Der (01:15:48.270)
even in a dry suit, they will still get cold. I mean, so there is that whole layer and then you do have to plan for the type of active heating. Some are connected where the battery is on the outside, there's some where the battery is on the inside.

Jay (01:15:50.391)

Jack Der (01:16:04.630)
And I just throw a little word of caution in with batteries on the inside, make sure they're rated for being in the water. Because there's always user error. See, I'm not blaming the dry suit. Blaming the diver. There could be a leak, right? You don't want to have electronics get wet if they're not designed to get wet.

Jay (01:16:11.031)

Jay (01:16:17.090)

Jay (01:16:23.130)
Yep. Yeah. No, I mean, and to your, to your point there, I think it's kind of what we said earlier as well is that ideally you're actually cold on the way down and warm on the way up from a decompression standpoint, saturation perspective, right? Which I'll think those studies have illuminated and maybe led to a little bit of the, these, the, this newer version of flipping the heater on at the deco stop, right? At your first deco stop to aid your decompression.

Jack Der (01:16:49.950)

Jay (01:16:53.190)
in some ways from a technical diving perspective. So, um, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, gosh, um, okay, we, we do have to wrap this one up because like I said, we can, we can talk for hours and hours about this, but I think, okay, let's wrap it up with this simple question, which is the, one of the biggest deterrents to getting into a dry suit is always, at least what

Jay (01:17:23.370)
that it costs a lot more than a wetsuit. And you know, am I really gonna be that way? It's kinda like, I bought a boat in 2020. We called it our COVID relief plan because you could actually go out and do that, right? We got a wakeboard boat and you could go out in wakeboard and have fun and be on the lake without any risk of getting COVID. It's like being in your living room because you're not in contact with anyone other than your family, right? So that was our plan and we had a blast doing it.

Jack Der (01:17:35.194)

Jay (01:17:53.070)
But we didn't buy an expensive crazy expensive boat. We bought an older boat. You know, are we really going to like this, those sorts of things. And I remember being out on the lake and some boats wakeboard boats are crazy expensive in my mind. Like, you know, you're talking like $200,000, $300,000 for a boat. And it just like blows my mind, right? I don't have that kind of money to spend. I'm not even full time in the dive industry yet. So so there you go.

Jack Der (01:18:20.470)
That's what I was going to say.

Jack Der (01:18:23.370)
Wow, what dive industry job do you have? Ha ha ha.

Jay (01:18:26.212)
Yeah, exactly. So I mean, so, you know, the looking at that would be out on a lake. And I constantly would say like, I know that looks really nice, but there's no way they're having $200,000 more fun than we are. There's no way they're having $300,000 more fun than we are, even with all the cool features. I mean, they have they have boats now.

Jay (01:18:53.090)
the wake on the boat. You can switch it left to right from the watch, right? You can control the height and the pitch of the wake that it's producing just from the watch, which is awesome and amazing and such cool technology. But I guarantee that it's not $300,000 worth more fun than we are. And the same thing can be said about a dry suit. If you're in a wet suit is I guarantee they're not, you know, $2,000 more warm than I am. I can deal with a little bit of cold.

Jack Der (01:18:55.231)
Oh wow, that's cool.

Jack Der (01:19:22.850)

Jay (01:19:23.450)
I'm going to throw this question out to both of us because this is not appointed at you at work. It's really a question. You and I both dive dry. You and I have talked a lot about it. The in retrospect, is it worth it? Is it worth the investment that you're going to make in a dry suit? Um, and in your training to get trained on how to use that dry suit and in the maintenance of that suit to care for it longterm, um, to go into a dry suit,

or should I just keep on every couple of years replacing my wetsuit or have different versions of wetsuits I can use?

Jack Der (01:20:01.770)
Yeah, that's a tough one. But if you just take San Diego, for example, I mean, that's, you know, backyard right here. And you go down and you look at, there's some guys I see, they still wear the Farmer John's, they're diving it forever. And they have dry suits. They just never, they just go with the easy, right? And then there's other people you see always in a dry suit. So again, it comes down

Jack Der (01:20:31.770)
And when it comes down to is it worth it, so remember I was talking about there's a price range, I mean you can get dry suits down that $1,000 range all the way up to $5,000, right? There's that whole range. But it comes down to how frequently are you diving? I mean is it worth buying a $5,000 dry suit to go dive cold once or twice a year? You know, I mean, some people sure.

But if you're diving every week and yes, your water temperatures are cold and if it's starting to deter you from from diving because it's too cold and you want a suit that will last because I would say it could be worth it if you do the math. Okay, an example would be I'm not saying every high end suit will last like this but I

Jack Der (01:21:31.650)
200 material that's talking about. It's, that material's crazy. So I've seen suits that are 15 to 20 years old. And yes, they've had to replace the seals, obviously. They've replaced the zippers. But the investment they made back then, it was probably only a couple thousand dollars back then, they're still using that same suit. So in some cases, yes, it's way worth it.

You know, and it's how well do you treat that suit over time? Then again, if you're just Casually diving and you want to go with a lower cost suit It could still be worth it if it lasts two three years Even though it's you know, one of those suits that you know It only has like a one-year warranty or a three-year warranty, but You're diving in a Numbers wise it could last six years

Jay (01:22:31.670)

Jack Der (01:22:32.090)
You know, if you break that out, I mean, I know people that were buying new wetsuits every two years, you know. It gets pretty expensive. You keep buying, you know, two, three, four hundred dollars. I mean, some of those wetsuits are kind of pricey, like eight hundred dollars, right? So you're starting to bridge into the entry level dry suit range. So I mean, it really comes down to that comfort level and frequency of diving.

Jay (01:22:51.870)

Jack Der (01:23:02.050)
And if it's going to stop you from diving because you're cold, I mean, it really is one of those things. You guess you'll be happier in the long run if you go that, if you're serious about the diving. I mean, I feel bad for people that if they buy a super high-end suit, but then they stop diving. I'm like, oh, but you should keep diving. So that part I've, you know, but that's like, you know, buy an expensive car, but I don't want to drive it.

Jay (01:23:26.130)
Yeah, exactly.

Jay (01:23:31.890)
Right. Right. Well, I can answer for myself, maybe more. I make the assumption that I'm answering to someone who, who will, who's obsessed with diving. That's for that way. Because that's the people I try to surround myself with is yeah, it's worth it 100%. Like I give the advice all the time. All right, next on your list is to buy a dry suit. And I give that advice because number one of the versatility of the suit, there's

Jack Der (01:23:32.341)

Jack Der (01:23:44.372)

Jay (01:24:01.770)
wear that I can't dive in my dry suit. I just changed the undergarment. Right? I mean, I'm in, I've been in Texas for four years, it gets hot, right in nasty here. I'd still dive my dry suit. I've seen people snicker at me as I put my dry suit on and it's 105 degrees outside. And they're like, why is this idiot putting on a dry suit when it's so hot? I said, well, once I'm in the water, I'm wearing a thin undergarment. I've got my you know, everything's good. And actually, I

Jay (01:24:31.830)
it wet and it dries me off or cools me off when I'm back on the surface really well. It's actually a better cooling than a wetsuit when you're on the surface when it's wet, not when it's not wet. So I mean the versatility that you get with a dry suit, you can dive it anywhere. You wanted to go dive in the ice and the next day come and dive in 100 degree Texas weather, the change that you're going to make is going to be your undergarment and you're good, right, in a lot of ways.

Jay (01:25:01.930)
not only versatility, but the overall safety, we call it at UTD being in a balanced rig, right? And that means that you are actually able to maintain neutral buoyancy throughout the course of your dive, from the descent, the bottom time to the ascent, no matter what dive you're going to do. And so to me, again, from a safety perspective, being in that balanced rig, looking at your weighting,

This is with a caveat saying when you change your undergarments, it changes your weighting. So I think it's a really important thing. Every anytime you change your undergarments, you need to actually do a weight check and understand your weighting. Because as you add undergarments or take undergarments away, you're adding positive buoyancy or, or adding, or if you're adding negative buoyancy, but you're losing positive buoyancy when you take undergarments away. Um, with that caveat is to say that, um,

Jay (01:26:01.910)
be in that neutrally buoyant balanced rig position throughout the course of a dive because I can control how much gas I add and how much gas I vent to that suit. Whereas in a wetsuit, I can't control the compression and the expansion of the suit through event, right? I can't actually do that. It's going to happen regardless of whether I want it to or not.

And so from those two perspectives, I think versatility and safety, a dry suit is worth every penny of it. And then the third thing, which is rule six, when it comes down to it, which is look cool. And I think, you know, there's, like I said today, the start of the show that I, you know, went into my kids' classrooms today. And you can imagine, you know, walking around in that dry suit, you know, they would think I was an astronaut, like you said.

Jack Der (01:26:31.950)

Jay (01:27:01.790)
know, I love the look of the dry suit and I was I was kind of picking you you're pushing me towards really you just want all black like come on don't you want a little color? I think I ended up going with like some white stitching, you know, because it's like, yeah, maybe Jack's right. But like I like the all black like, you know, it just looks to me it just looks real hot looks real real nice. Or to put it as my girls would say it looks fashion. And so I think it looks good. And I like that. So to me, I get all those benefits, whether you know, because I'm not going to win any awards in a wetsuit.

Jack Der (01:27:24.012)

Jay (01:27:31.770)
good looking wetsuit contest. I'll tell you that. So the wetsuit makes me feel like it looks cool. But for me, it's worth it. I think even on a budget, because it's going to be a piece of gear that you use every dive, there are a lot of things that people spend money on that you use once or you sits in a box. I mean, gosh, I have things that have sat in boxes, you know what I mean? Because I bought them back in the day. They seem like a good idea and I never use it.

Jay (01:28:01.830)
only gonna buy something that I'm gonna use on every dive or that I have a direct application for that I'm gonna use it at least X amount of times based on the cost. For example, we're talking scooters, I think in one of the other episode. That's coming up, because I wouldn't buy it here in Texas, because I mean, come on, what are we really gonna scooter around in? But when it comes to that shore swim in La Jolla Shores for the everyday diving, scooter here I come. So.

Jack Der (01:28:14.731)

Jay (01:28:31.990)
I'd say dress suit. It's an everyday piece of equipment. It's something that gives you so much versatility and adds to your safety margin in diving, whether you're doing just recreational diving or technical diving, especially that I say it's worth every penny. So that's, that's my two cents.

Jack Der (01:28:48.590)
Yeah. Yeah. No, and yeah, the style is for me. I'd have to say that's a high point. You can tell when someone takes a picture of you and your dry suit, if you have some sort of styling to it, that it's you. So if you happen to see some of the posts online, there's always, I'm always there because I'm always wearing some flashy,

Jack Der (01:29:17.450)
that. But I like making sure that, you know, I'm all about swapping out patches on my sleeve, you know, to make things cool. And, you know, a pirate patch and Star Wars patches and stuff like that. I don't know. I like I like blinging it up.

Jay (01:29:32.830)
Yeah, see, we did. I think we put a patch on my or a pile on my pile patch on my suit. I haven't put the patches on yet. But yeah, I like the I feel like I should have been diving like, you know, I'm stuck 20 years ago. Like, it's so funny, because like, I like the all black suit, right. And the question now is like, why does everything just diving gear only come in all black? It's like, no, it comes in lots of cool colors and patterns and all kinds of things that you can add

Jack Der (01:29:37.750)
Pile patch, right?

Jay (01:30:02.870)
swear to you and I'm not making this up that the scuba pro gorilla mask right the original old school it is the best mask I've ever had in my life in terms of you know I've got a beard and I had other other massive just leaked a little bit here and there and I just got used to water in my nose you know it's just the way it way it goes. I put that mask on and boom no water I'm never never water in my face again. Right I have the

Jack Der (01:30:19.513)

Jay (01:30:32.950)
like from the sixties and they're great because the last the last me, you know, I'll pass them on to my grandkids probably. Right. Um, and they're just durable and they work for what I need. Right. Um, all those things. So I swear I'm like the, the old school, you know, when all this cool innovation stuff was, I mean, I still dive a horseshoe doubles wing. I like the horseshoe doubles wing because I can move gas around if I'm slinging a Deco or I have a stage

Jack Der (01:30:41.591)

Jay (01:31:02.910)
I can sling a little more gas in the left side to carry that stuff and still be really, really balanced, right? So it's and it's funny. Like I although I am not an old school diver, I'm a relatively new diver. I feel like all of my preferences go back like 20 years for some reason. And so be it. I've just accepted that I'm an old soul and diving in a new kid, new kid on the blocks body.

Jack Der (01:31:25.031)

Jack Der (01:31:31.170)
As long as everything is done safe and people know what your gear setup is, I mean that's, you know, and diving with buddies that know the setup, I mean that is important. That goes in a whole other thing. Just being safe, right? You know, like, knowing, like, in a dry suit, knowing what to do if your buddy's inflator valve sticks, for example, and they panic. You know.

Jay (01:31:49.070)

Jay (01:31:58.191)

Jack Der (01:32:00.290)
go and solve their issue, right? You just need to know that stuff. So it's just knowing the right configuration and then everyone knowing how to fix it if you have to. Safe diving. Anyways, digressing away from dry suits. But anyways.

Jay (01:32:14.730)
No, agreed, agreed, agreed. And I think that that comes down to, you know, what's called the buddy check or an equipment match, right? And I see it overlooked way too often on boats and on the shore is just spending that extra couple of minutes to go through someone else's configuration in a check and be locked into that, not be distracted. Because when I say, hey, my, you know,

Jack Der (01:32:41.714)

Jay (01:32:46.551)
I can't tell you how many times people have caught that, right? Not on, you know, just as a team. My suit inflates. Oh, I didn't hook that up. You put the hard on bottle and now it inflates. Okay. You don't want that to happen when you hit the water, right? If you didn't test either one of your wing or your dry suit, now you're in real trouble with all that heavy gear. And so I just think equipment matching is, is, or, or buddy checking and recreational diving is a, is crazy.

Jack Der (01:33:01.914)

Jay (01:33:14.670)
critically to are critical to be engaged in but yeah, maybe maybe we'll come back and do a whole episode on that because man The that we could go down another two hours of a rabbit trail there. So alright, let's wrap this one up. This was great All right So today we focused on how do you choose thermal protection and man there was a wealth of knowledge I still have like 70 questions that I didn't get to you for you of like things that we should maybe come back and do another episode on like just the

Jack Der (01:33:20.791)
Ha ha.

Jay (01:33:44.830)
that that you know people ask when it comes to try suits or I've thought about when it comes to try suits should I do it this way or should I do it that way? But we would love to hear your thoughts. Do you dive dry or do you dive a wetsuit? Are you gearing up for a dry suit? You know are you considering one? What are your thoughts there? And what has been your experience with thermal protection? What types of undergarments have you used? What works for you? So on and so forth. So reach out to us. Shoot a message Jack. Shoot a message to me. I'd love to hear from you. Shoot

to producer Daniel, whoever you feel comfortable reaching out to. And we would love to hear your story and your experience of that. Any parting thoughts, Jack, before we wrap this one up officially?

Jack Der (01:34:29.098)
Dive dry. Don't let your friends dive wet.

Jay (01:34:32.830)
I like that. Don't be a savage is maybe another bumper sticker we need to have on the dive boats there. Don't be a savage dive dry. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Well, Jack, I just want to thank you for the last three episodes. I've had a blast co-hosting them with you and getting to pick your brain on different topics and things. And it was a fun three episodes to see. I feel like it's good stuff. I thought we could keep going for another 20 episodes if we wanted to.

Jack Der (01:35:00.650)
Time flies. Or Jack's lost track of time and he's just rambling.

Jay (01:35:01.670)
time flies.

Jack Der (01:35:08.970)
So the next topic, aging and diving.

Jay (01:35:12.712)

Jack Der (01:35:15.210)
There's that guy rambling on again.

Jay (01:35:18.171)
Yeah, you remember that story back in the day? We know we know it's you know, we're telling the same stories over and over again, it's time for for us to hang up the phone here.

Jay (01:35:31.510)
All right. Well, if you enjoyed this episode and you want to be a part of this community, make sure that you subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. That way you get notified when new episodes like this one drop. And thank you for joining us today. We look forward to having you back on the next episode of the dive table.