Jay (00:00)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner and with me is miss Sarah. Sarah, how are you today?
Sarah (00:09)
I'm doing great. I'm a little tired and we'll talk about why in a bit here, but I'm in Playa del Carmen. So I'm doing great. There's a little bit of construction next to me. So I apologize to all the listeners if you hear hammers and things. There's nothing I can do about it.
Jay (00:29)
Under construction. Aren't we all. Well, good. I think like for this episode, exactly. It's life is always me too. Actually. I'm going to, I don't know when this episode will air. So who knows what will have transpired in the in between, but yeah, I'm in a transitional period too. It's interesting. It was work wise, figuring out what's next. So under construction is a good theme.
Sarah (00:31)
Yeah, exactly. It's just life.
Under construction, yeah.
Jay (01:00)
That's right. Yeah. Remember back in the day, the websites that you'd go to way back in the early days, internet, maybe I'm dating myself here, but you go to the website and it was like a big yellow sign, like construction looking sign with a, with a animated guy, the shovel or something. And it said under construction and like, Oh, okay. This website's under construction. Yeah.
Sarah (01:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I remember the early days of the internet. I'm that old too.
Jay (01:28)
Yeah, I guess we are. I guess we are. Yeah, I remember I what part of my in my I think junior year and I don't know why it didn't take but we were we were part of having to in the class. I don't remember the name of the class all those things but um junior year of high school we had to build our first website and literally it was writing code like back in the day HTML and man I think back to that and go like man if I had only at that point
Sarah (01:52)
Oh my god.
Jay (01:57)
fall in love with writing code, but I made some, you know, random team website with our roster and blah, blah, blah, and thought it was so cool. And it was really just a platform for me to feel cool, not like a skillset to build, which I looked back on and go, man, life could have been way different for me. And I fall in love with that at the time.
Sarah (02:19)
Interesting. We didn't have to do that. I just learned how to type. And then I did the MySpace thing. Maybe that was just the younger millennial phase of the internet. But anyway, I think we're going to talk about cave diving on this episode. So I don't know why we're talking HTML. But let's get into some cave diving. It's all good. It's all good.
Jay (02:36)
HAHA
I know. Oh, I know. This is how my brain works. Unfortunately. Yeah. Well, we'll find a way to link it all together at some point, but yeah, I think, uh, you and are chatting about this episode and, and, um, and yeah, I mean, I think we're just going to have an off the cuff discussion about cave diving. You're, you're in Playa right now. You're doing some cave diving. Um, I think it's a great discussion to have. And I don't, we don't have a point in terms of like,
Sarah (03:05)
Yeah.
Jay (03:11)
you know, this is the way to cave dive or this is the risk or this is just a general discussion about cave diving because I think it's a topic that's always out there, always.
Sarah (03:23)
Well, and we have two very different experiences, which people would have heard if they listened to our previous episode about technical diving. We have had very different experiences and have very different preferences, right? I've been pretty vocal about the fact that I'm not...
super interested in the hardcore cave, technical diving route, whereas you are. And I think that's really fascinating. And I think the sport and the discipline is interesting, but it's just something that I haven't necessarily been drawn into as that diving love affair that coming back to our very first episode of the season is just not my thing.
But I did want to revisit it now because I want to understand it more and I want to explore it more. So that's why I'm here sitting in a hotel room in Playa del Carmen.
Jay (04:29)
Yeah, and the caves there are, you know, considered some of the most decorated, if not the most decorated caves in the world. And by decoration, if you're not familiar with that, what that means is, you know, there's stalagmites and stalactites and different formations and things that are inside of those caves, whereas some caves are literally wet rock. I guess all caves are wet rock, but not decorated.
Sarah (04:37)
Amazing. Yeah.
Hehehehehehe
Jay (04:57)
or less decorated and things and it varies. So you're in an amazing place to be talking about cave diving for sure.
Sarah (05:05)
Yeah, and somebody who was new to diving was asking because I was telling them about my previous experience. So I had gone through the full cave course about six or seven years ago when I lived in Playa del Carmen. And I was telling them about the things that we would see, like those decorations that you just mentioned, or like really old bones, remnants from people that used to...
do things in the caves and they're like, wait, why, how, how is that possible? And it's, I guess it's not like common knowledge that those were dry, right? Like the caves were dry and the water has filled them up. And so now they're primed for diving, but that's why there's all of those kinds of decorations and everything. It's all of that formed when the caves were actually dry.
Jay (05:59)
Right, yeah. And that's one of the fascinating parts of cave diving to me is that you're literally swimming, I guess you're always swimming in history, but it feels more pronounced to me when you're seeing, you know, as I'm diving in the cave, I'm thinking about amongst a lot of other things, but one of the things that I'm awestruck by is just how the water carved that space. Like how did that?
Sarah (06:14)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (06:29)
get there because it was dry. I remember I was in a cave in Florida and in this particular section of the cave, there was kind of a shelf. It was around, imagine just a tube. It felt like a tube, a larger tube, but not huge. And then halfway down the tube was kind of the shelf. And then below that, the tube continued. Right. And so in my mind, I was thinking, wow, I wonder if this used to be the shore.
Sarah (06:52)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (06:57)
you know, or like the edge of the river, because the water obviously was below this at some point and it carved this path, the shelf. And then, you know, there was people, maybe I was imagining people's feet, you know, bare feet looking for footprints that might be in, in that space along that shelf. And, you know, I don't know, I went back and did some research and it's not conclusive as to that's actually what that formation, how it was made. But it was fascinating to me. And it was something that just,
kept me awestruck through that section of that dive, which was incredible. So it's one of the things that draws me to that environment is that feeling. And of course you can have that with coral, you can have that with lots of different environments, but it's really, I would say intense and strong for me, personally, when I'm in that cave environment is that thought of, gosh, I'm just a speck. And I remember the first time I felt that, not to go...
too far down this feeling, but I remember it was the first time I traveled internationally. And I think I was like 17 or 18. And long story short, I somehow figured out how to get a free trip for my senior trip to Jamaica. Don't ask me how, it was a lot of like work to get there, but I got to go to Jamaica. And was it to Jamaica? I don't know. It wasn't. What was it? I was on my way to Africa later. It was not Jamaica. Sorry.
Sarah (08:15)
Nice.
Jay (08:27)
I'm getting my stories all mixed up back to that, you know, we're old thing. But I was on my way to Africa. And I remember we stopped over in London for two days or something like that on the way to Africa. And I remember standing on the cobbled streets in London and thinking about, you know, not only the horse-drawn carriages that would have gone down the street, but the people and how they built the street.
and feeling like, man, I'm just this insignificant spec in the long draw of history. And how not, it should make you feel bad, but it actually made me feel really secure. Like that, hey, I'm okay. You know, like I'm part of this, but it's not all around me. And it was that first time I had that experience. And every time I go in a cave, I feel that way. I feel like, wow, I'm just, you know, I'm finite.
the universe is infinite and that's an amazing feeling to feel in at least for me. Anyway, long way about saying I like cave diving.
Sarah (09:31)
I think that's, no, no, no. I think that that feeling is a really powerful thing to recognize because I feel like we get so obsessed with like little stresses and things that we have to do. And then, you know, you realize how little you are and how not important most of the things are that we do, you know, even though we have like this big importance we're going off the deep end with this side. But I think it's comforting.
to realize that like, oh, I'm actually not like, it's not a big deal. Nothing that I do like recording this podcast, not really a big deal. You know, like in the big scheme of things, no one's going to die. Like, you know, so I, I understand that that feeling. My thing with like the motivation for wanting to come back here is I don't like it when I have an experience where
Jay (10:10)
Yeah, exactly.
Sarah (10:29)
I genuinely feel like stressed or fearful. Like I don't like leaving loose ends. And I feel like my last experiences in caves
had those loose ends. I talked about it in one of my, I think it was like an Instagram reel or something, where one of the times that I felt panicked underwater was in Taj Mahal, and I wasn't able to equalize, and I wasn't able to go up to help with the equalization situation. There was a literal roof over my head, and it felt really scary.
Obviously I got out and it was fine, but that was like a loose end in my diving book. Whereas like in other situations, like I've had some scary situations in Komodo, but I was able to go back to those dive sites and like face that fear and re not rewrite, but like create different memories in those places and to learn from whatever happened. But with the caves, I didn't.
do that. So this was like a trip back to sort of face some things and also to develop as a diver. Like this is the first time that I'm doing caves in a dry suit. And let me tell you, it's something. It's something.
Jay (11:45)
Mmm.
Ha ha!
Yeah. Well, and I think you bring up a really good point and on the more serious aspect of that, you know, you're right. I think maybe the way to phrase that is that the cave environment is unforgiving, right? Something like equalization, sure, is somewhat minor in the grand scheme of things that the cave won't forgive, right?
Sarah (12:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jay (12:34)
And so it's a serious environment and it's not, you know, I know I talk about it as, as this love affair and it's true, but it's something that I also have an immense amount of respect for that environment because I know it will, it will punish the mistakes much more severely than pretty much any other environment outside of, you know, inside of a tricky wreck, right? Which is essentially a cave, right? It's I mean, they're, they're essentially the same thing.
Sarah (13:01)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (13:04)
different but the same idea. And so it's a serious thing. It's not something to take lightly. It's not something to jump into half-heartedly, I think, because of the fact that it is completely an unforgiving environment. If you, every mistake that you make, which of course you're a human being, you will make mistakes, is amplified by an amount.
because of that environment. And so yeah, I totally understand what you're saying. It's kind of that like, man, I got punished and I wanna go back and recuperate a little bit in that environment or, in parenting, they talk a lot about, there's so many philosophies and there's so many ideas and blah, blah, blah. But one of the things I really...
Sarah (13:56)
I can only imagine.
Jay (14:01)
appreciate is, look, as parents, you'll make mistakes. You'll lose your patience at some point. I know, I think I found like, there's a limit, something like 18 times of like dealing with the conflict where I just like, I'm rubbed so raw, I just can't. And I'm just like, just go to your room for a minute. I need a minute, you know, like, and you'll lose it. You know, you'll make mistakes, you'll say the wrong thing. Today, driving my kids to school, for example, you know, my youngest just,
Sarah (14:05)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (14:30)
sings at the top of her lungs. And my others were trying to have a conversation and the little is just like belting out something at the top of her lungs. And she's in her own world. Like you could say her name, you could say like fire, you could say anything. She would, she's just in her own world. And so I raised my voice to like break through her singing and I realized crap, like I'm telling her in some way, like your dad is gonna yell if you sing.
Sarah (14:32)
Oh god.
Jay (14:57)
And even though that's not what I was trying to communicate, that's what I did communicate. So you're gonna make mistakes. And what I really like about the idea in parenting or what I've latched onto is that it's not about whether or not you make mistakes, because you will. It's about how do you recuperate? How do you repair coming back to the fact and admit that to your kid? Hey, look, I made a mistake. I'm sorry I did that. And without saying, well, if you didn't do this, I wouldn't have done that.
It's just saying, I'm sorry, I'm human, I made a mistake. You know, I wanna repair that. And that's something I've really latched onto in parenting. And I think it's kind of what you're saying in some ways around caves is, or other punishing environments is when you have that rough experience, whatever it is, you wanna come back for the rejoinder, the repair, right? To recuperate a little bit. And that's, you know, ego, that's...
Sarah (15:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jay (15:56)
you know, your psyche, that's like your confidence, all sorts of things is built into that. And I think it's important.
Sarah (15:57)
Oh.
Oh, yeah. I have to say, because my cave instructor, basically, I'm here taking a cave refresher and then doing some fun diving. And my instructor for the cave refresher, he's got a one-year-old. And I listened to stories from him and from you and my other friends who have kids. And I'm like, more power to you guys. Like, not for me, bro.
Jay (16:31)
Yeah, you know, I love my kids. It's no no doubt. You love your kids. No doubt. They're an incredible you know responsibility all of those things and Someday my kids maybe they'll listen to this I don't think they'll ever listen to it But if they do they know that that I love them But I do describe parenthood sometimes as you're just on that knife's edge between on one side of it is wow This is incredible, you know lovely all the things that the movies make kids out to be
on the other side of that edge is like, why in the heck did I do this? Like, look at what I lost and what I was sacrificed. And it's funny because parenthood feels like you're always just on the other edge of it's worth it. It's never like you're fully on one side or the other side. It's like, I'll be right on the edge of like, man, what the heck, I just need to like get out of here. Like, what am I doing? And then, you know, your kid will...
Sarah (17:05)
Hehe
Jay (17:29)
come to you and just snuggle up to you on the couch for whatever reason you go like, and they just push it right on the other edge of like, it's worth it, you know? And so that's been my experience. I love my kids. It's work, it's hard, it's, you know, it's all of that. But yeah, you know, there's no looking back at this point.
Sarah (17:36)
Yeah. Hahaha.
Yeah, yeah. So I don't know it for me getting back into the caves it was it was really stressful to be honest. Like my first the first day was okay because I wasn't having to do anything. Like my instructor did a demo dive where he showed me the skills that I obviously did before but it had been a while.
But then the second day was rough because I was put in that number one position and had to lay out the primary line, do the jumps, do everything. And on top of that, in the dry suit, I made the mistake of not bringing the right undergarments. I had asked about it and I was way too hot. It was the first time in my diving career that I was hot underwater.
And that dive was awful. Like, it was okay going in, but then we started coming out, which was good. I was gonna call the dive anyway if we hadn't because I was starting to get uncomfortable. But then of course that's when all hell breaks loose and training dives where, you know, your light is broken, you're going out blind, like.
all these things and so like the compounding problems just increase my stress and increase my internal heat. And I just oh man, that dive was rough. It was rough. So I don't know. It's been that was two days ago. And then yesterday, I had a much, much better dive because I adjusted what I was wearing and everything. But I still just don't
quite find that like comfort point, you know, of being like, like we were talking about being in the zone. I have glimpses, like I have moments of them, but I don't know if it's just like my brain and how ADD I am, but it's like, it's too much to focus on and pay attention to. And like, I'm exhausted by the time I'm coming out.
You know, just with like one dive, I'm exhausted. And again, it's probably just lack of experience and all of that. It comes with time and everything. But I yeah, I don't know. I just I had like these little moments and I hadn't gotten out my camera or anything. Like I've been just focused on on the caves and whatever. There were a couple of moments where I was like, OK, I feel comfortable. The line isn't going to disappear all of a sudden. My my buddies aren't going to poof.
you know, disappear and leave me like that. I don't know what it is about my brain that thinks that all of a sudden I'm gonna be alone in a cave. That's just where my brain goes. But I had these moments of like, okay, I feel good. And like, wow, this is incredible. And I got out my camera and I took some videos and those moments I was like, okay, I kind of get why people are into this.
Jay (21:11)
Hmm
Yeah, it's so interesting because my experience in the cave environment, I remember a particular dive where I was a bit tense before the dive because we were going right, we were going into the cave right after Lamar Hines, who's the owner of Dive Right and his son. We had hung out with them before and all this stuff. But this is their home turf. And
and we were kind of going in the cave right after them. We were literally the next team in. And I remember feeling tense like I needed to perform or, you know, I don't know. I don't know if you've ever felt that where like, you wanna put on a good showing, you know, like, which is totally in your brain. And I remember, you know, thank God, my teammate at the time was like, dude, where's your brain? And I was like, oh, good question. Like, I'm in this like, I'm tense. I'm like, I'm like.
Sarah (21:55)
100%.
Mm-hmm.
Jay (22:12)
too much in my head and I had to take a minute. I had to breathe, I had to take a minute. Like look, we're just going in the cave, it's all good. I've never been in this particular cave, but it's like you said, the line's not gonna disappear and if it does, we're okay. I'm taking mental notes. Like my teammates, I can trust, like all these sorts of things. But I still have gas on my back, like everything's okay. But for me, those have been very rare. I find for myself, like in a cave environment,
that the brain is the biggest tool you bring into any dive, but especially in a punishing environment like the cave. And so having the right mindset before you even get in the water, right? Before you even put on the dry suit, any of those sorts of things has been part of my preparation and part of what I really wanna check in with myself, because to be honest with you, no cave is worth it if you're not in the right state of mind.
Sarah (22:48)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (23:12)
There's very few cases where, you know, and I would say maybe there's like one where you're having to go into the cave to rescue someone, which is a totally different thing. And I don't think most of us ever get into that situation where you have to go into the cave. You have to do that dive. There's a lot that your brain says, well, I paid for the flight. I have all this gear. People are counting on me, all this stuff. But not being afraid to say, look, I'm just not in the right.
Sarah (23:24)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (23:42)
space to do this right now is the first check, right? Is the first thing that should happen. And so for me, that's become part of my, like from the time I wake up on a cave diving day, it's like I'm checking in with myself. I'm making sure I'm actually excited to do this and in the right state of mind, which I would say the right state of mind is that I'm respectful, first of all. I understand what I'm taking on and I'm comfortable with
the skill set and the training and the things that I have in order to meet that same level of respect for the environment. When those things are balanced out, we're like, yeah, I don't feel I'm completely overwhelmed by what I'm about to go do, or dismissive that what I'm about to go do is safe, inherently. When those two things are matched, it feels like the right state of mind for me to then go out and do a dive.
rather than when they're unmatched, you know, I'm overwhelmed, my brain's on a thousand other things or oh yeah, I've done this cave a thousand times, I got this. Those are things that would trigger me.
Sarah (24:53)
The I got this attitude, that is the most, like that's the most dangerous position that you could be in. I got this is like, uh-uh, it's not gonna fly. My thing is understanding like having self-awareness and recognizing like, cause if I listening to you, if I were to take that advice, I would never go cave diving or tech diving.
because I feel overwhelmed and stressed by it, like truly. That's just how, that's where I am, but I also know the, like my ability to perform under stress and overwhelm, if that makes sense. Like I've had a lot of experience in varying levels of that.
And so I know when it's like, oh, this is okay, this is manageable versus like, no, this is not okay. Like I have a lot, I'm a recovering anxiety person, that's something that like I deal with regularly. I have it pretty well under control at this point, not under control, but I have more tools to work with it. But that's something that I think people probably,
Jay (26:03)
Ha ha ha.
Sarah (26:20)
if they're not comfortable with it, like maybe don't have experience with and like understanding of themselves, because yeah, if I just went by that rule, I wouldn't be here, like I wouldn't be doing this. But I set myself up for success by not just saying like, well, I'm a cave diver, I've got the certification, so I can come here and just go into a cave because I've done it before, no.
that's not where I'm at. So I hired a friend who is an excellent, like I'm so blown away by how good of an instructor this guy is, Tavo from Dark Side Divers, like so great, I've known him for years. And so I decided to go with him and get like a proper refresher to help with that anxiety. Right, I felt like I was in a safe.
a safer environment with somebody that I knew I could trust. This was the first time I was diving caves without Itor, which like, if anybody has followed my journey with diving, Itor has been my security blanket as a diver, you know? Like he's just always been there to like keep me calm and whatever. And so I set myself up for success in that sense by hiring someone to like lead me to.
Jay (27:26)
Right, right.
Sarah (27:41)
get my confidence back and to get my skills back to a level that are acceptable instead of just like coming here and being like, I'm certified so it'll be fine.
Jay (27:56)
Yeah, no, and that's important, right? I mean, everything you're describing there is that self-awareness game, right, is the brain. And it's one of those things that you've taken a lot of time to train, right? When you say you're a recovering anxiety person, I don't think that's a scientific term, but I like it. Whatever it is.
Sarah (28:19)
No, but whatever. I'm recovering. I'm recovering and everything, like honestly.
Jay (28:25)
Yes. But the reason that you can use that word recovering is you have one, a self-awareness of it and two, you put in a ton of work. And so your training of your brain outside of scuba, outside of cave diving, outside of any of this is again, that muscle, that most important tool that you bring into any environment, but especially a punishing environment.
And I think that's the thing when I say like the check in with myself, that's the thing that again, the, one of the reasons I feel comfortable or confident, but not cocky and there's a line between those things in cave diving is because I feel like I've received training that, that has been about my brain, right? About the way I approach it. That's been evaluating my thinking, not my, you know, perfect, you know, fin kick. Um, but,
Sarah (29:16)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (29:24)
Those are part of those things, but more about the thinking portion of it. And for me, that leads to a level of confidence in what I can't handle and what I can't handle under the water. And on top of that, I think that, you know, I've been tried, I've been tested in a safe environment. There's never such thing as a completely safe, you know,
training dive. Um, but in a safe as you can be training dive inside of a cave, you know, I've been tested. Yeah. I've had my valves rolled off. Yeah. I've had, you know, free flows. Yeah. I've had, you know, the minor things, lights go out and things like that and have to react to those and have to react to those not only for myself, but with my team. And I think that's the other piece of it too. That, that is maybe doesn't get talked about.
in cave diving and that you're kind of hitting on that is important is there's a huge aspect too as to who you are willing to get in that environment with. And that was my first lesson. I think I talked about it on the tech diving podcast, but that was one of the big lessons that I took out of all my tech training was like, wow, the, the Rolodex or the list of people that I will go and do a big dive with like that is really small because I have to trust that person's training. I have to trust that person's.
Sarah (30:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jay (30:51)
beyond that, their brain. And that's a big leap for someone you're just meeting on the boat or someone that you're like, yeah, let's meet up and go cave diving together. That's one of those things that, again, for me, the comfortability of being confident in the water comes also from understanding my team and my support system that's under the water. So it's an important aspect of the mental game.
you know, who are you with? And I think it cuts two ways. Sorry, I'm talking a lot about this, but it cuts two ways. There's one way of, I think that's positive, which is I trust that teammate's thinking, I trust that teammate's training and they trust mine. It's kind of looking across the table and knowing that we mutually understand each other, we mutually can execute this dive. The negative way that that can cut,
is when you get into trust me dives where, oh yeah, this person has a thousand cave dives, they said, so I can just follow them and everything will be fine. Yeah, that's not the place to be, right? That's where it cuts too far of like, follow me dive. That's super dangerous, I think in your mind or in my mind. So I guess the emphasis on this is so much so that when you're in a very unforgiving environment, cave inside of a challenging wreck,
Sarah (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (32:18)
in open water in a, in Komodo and a crazy current, you were telling the story on, uh, on one of the surface intervals about, you know, hiding behind the rock and, and I tour was there and kind of knew what to do to help you get away from the rock and actually get into the current that's mental. It's not a perfect back kick. It's not, you know, breathing is for buoyancy. It's the mental game. And I think that that doesn't get enough play in training.
Sarah (32:40)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (32:46)
And I certainly don't think it gets enough play in understanding why divers can do what they do is the hours and work and time and effort they've put into training their minds, as much as they have, if not more, the skillset they show underwater.
Sarah (33:05)
Yeah. Yeah, it's, I don't know, it's just a, it's an interesting thing because, and it's something that I'm gonna reflect on in a YouTube video coming up with all of these experiences, but I wanna visit fear and diving and kind of dissect, you know, I'm spending some time to look at like, what is it that I'm really afraid of here?
And like, I know a big part of it is my brain just being hyperactive and thinking that the cave is gonna collapse on myself. And it's like, bro, this cave is so old. Like you think it's really just gonna suddenly collapse in the hour that you're in here, you know? And it was funny because I was having this conversation with one of my buddies. It was that dive that I got so hot on. And...
I was telling him how I just, he lights up when he talks about the caverns and the caves kind of like you. And he's like, it's just the most amazing thing and all this. I'm like, I just, I don't, I don't, I haven't gotten there yet. You know, it's just not, not there. And then we were talking about other diving experience because he does the bull shark diving here in Playa del Carmen as well. He's one of the guides for bull shark diving. And
Jay (34:29)
Oh yeah.
Sarah (34:31)
And I was like, see, I don't have any problems with sharks. Like I even told him, I've been in the water with saltwater crocodiles. Like I showed him a video of me with a stick in the water, like literally stick in the water with saltwater crocodiles. And he looked at me and he was like, you're afraid of a freaking cave? Like what is wrong with you?
Jay (34:42)
Oh, no way. No way.
Exactly. That's exactly my thoughts.
Sarah (35:00)
But again, I think it's because I have more experience and time with animals. I've spent my whole life around a wide variety of animals. And with that experience, I had training for what to do and how they behave and all of those things. Whereas with cave diving, it's just been very like...
get through the course and then start working and not have this foundation. We talked a lot about the foundation of cave diving and how that keeps you safe, right? Like those basic skills, trim, buoyancy, propulsion, and the mental part of it, obviously, we've talked about extensively already, but I didn't develop that.
fully when I was here last time, six or seven years ago. And so it was cool to come back and have that, although it's still like, I still feel like I don't fully have it just because even though I have a decent amount of dry suit dives at this point, I still just, there is something about the dry suit that I, man, I'm, hmm. It's, hmm.
Jay (36:24)
Hahaha!
Sarah (36:27)
You know, there's just little tweaking that still doesn't quite. I don't feel as solid as I do in a wetsuit. Like, I feel like I can just hang, you know, and be super cozy. But with the dry suit, it's like I'm Goldilocks. Like, I haven't found that perfect combination of fins and undergarments and weights and.
how to move the air around and everything. Like it's, I don't know. It's a learning process for sure. The whole experience has been very humbling because I have plenty of dives, but you can feel like an open water diver with plenty of dives. Ha ha.
Jay (37:11)
Exactly. Yeah, like re-breather, dive one, back to your open water days. Yeah, no, I mean, dry suits funny. I feel the I'm completely opposite. If I put on I've worn a wetsuit and I don't know how long and I if I put on a wetsuit, even in the pool, everything just feels wonky to me versus like dry suit just feels like, you know, it's my home. But you know, it's interesting and
Sarah (37:15)
Yeah. Right.
It's home. Yeah.
Jay (37:39)
And I probably at risk of sounding like a broken record because I often do, but I explain to my students a lot that the brain is a tricky thing because I relate it back to, you can use whatever analogy you want here, but I always relate it back to the first computer that I was ever exposed to was this old IBM computer and my mom was super proud that we had it.
I remember when I got my first computer game, it was Carmen San Diego, you know, and, uh, you know, you had to follow her around the world and follow the trail. And it's funny because to play that game, you had to start up the computer, which took forever. And then you had to put in the disc, right? The floppy disc or the little whatever. I don't remember the other size of disc that they call them, but you had to put that in and then the computer could run that program, but it couldn't do that. If you wanted to stop playing the game and type.
Sarah (38:13)
Cute.
Yep.
Jay (38:38)
you know, something and print it out on those old dot matrix printers, you had to take that disc out and put in the word processing one, right. And it stuck with me in terms of the power of the processor. Nowadays, I mean, we probably have 70,000 things open on our phones and, you know, the chip can handle all that, all that stuff, right.
Sarah (38:59)
literally, like all the tabs.
Jay (39:06)
Yeah, that's like the word. I have tab like anxiety. If I look at my wife's computer, for example, there's like 70 tabs in one window. You're like, how do you live with yourself? Like how do you do this? Like, oh, it stresses me out. I have to close things and open other things. Like I just don't do the tab. But you know, those older computers couldn't handle it. And I equate it for my students in the same way with our brain that
Sarah (39:19)
Uh-uh.
Hehehehe
Jay (39:35)
when we're in the learning mode, when something's new, something's, you know, different or challenging to us, it's taking most of our processing power to focus on that thing. Right, if you think back to your open water diet, it's just getting underwater took all of your focus, right? Getting, sinking took all the focus, right? And when you're working on something like, take buoyancy for example, when you're thinking about buoyancy, you say,
If I'm neutral in the water, properly weighed in with a balanced rig, if I breathe in, I have about four to six pounds of lift in my lungs. If I breathe out, I can drop four to six pounds of lift out and I should go up and down. For a lot of divers, this is a new concept, right? They say here breathing is for buoyancy, but they need to breathe for three to five seconds ahead of themselves. Hey, I want to go up in three seconds.
Hold it in for a second. Oh, there you go. Now breathe out normal breathing, right? Find neutral. When you're thinking about that for the first time, putting intense focus on it, seeing the cause and effect of your breathing, that buoyancy program takes all the bandwidth. Takes all, right? You're not thinking about the compass heading anymore. You're not thinking about your fitting technique. You're not thinking about your dry suit or your wet suit or the...
how much gas you have, you're thinking about breathing, that's it. And when that program's running so intensely, we focus fully on it. In other words, our view of focus narrows, perception narrows to a very small point. And what I always tell my students is the goal in your training is to start to put these things in the background, in the background operating system.
I don't think about breathing is for buoyancy anymore when I die. I did for a long time when I was learning it, but now I don't. I don't think about my back kick. It just happens because I put in the work. But gosh, when I was learning it, it's all I could think about. And all I could think about was how bad I was at it, right? And so these things, as you progress, and I think it goes back to something we were saying in a lot of our episodes is progressing along that plateau.
Sarah (41:47)
Mm-hmm.
Jay (42:01)
not too fast, not pushing yourself to be in a super punishing environment on top of not putting buoyancy in the background, but in the foreground of your thinking, it just is going to overload that computer, that brain, and it puts you in a really dangerous spot, regardless of, you know, it just compounds when you're in an overhead environment like a cave. So my point being is training the brain.
