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April 11, 2023

How to Build Relationships Through Diving with Jack Der of DUI S2E5



Jay (00:06.382)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner and with me is our third cohost of this amazing season two, coming all the way from beautiful San Diego, Mr. Jack Durr. Jack, I am so excited to have you here as a cohost for the next three episodes and that you agreed to come on. I was like, I really hope Jack says yes, because I've loved our conversations that we've had before and you're just a wealth

knowledge in the diving industry. And we met through a mutual acquaintance and you handled my my new DUI dry suit, which I'm super stoked to get in the water with I haven't yet because we're moving. But I'm really stoked to it. So you have so much knowledge about the industry. But what I love most about you and this is the reason I wanted you to come on the show is that you are a diver first. Yes, you're in this industry, but you are a diver first and I cannot wait for the next three episodes together. So welcome to the show, Jack. I'm so excited you're here.

Jack Der (01:06.950)
Oh no, this is awesome. I was kind of surprised when you sent me the email, like, huh, be on a podcast? Hmm, I can do that, I think. No, I might, and then all the scenarios went through my head of all these different topics, like, don't say that, do this, don't say that, don't say a name, oh no. So it's like, throw out the apologies right away, it's like, anyone that may think I'm talking about them, just ignore it.

Jay (01:18.123)
Ha ha!

Jay (01:34.782)
I'm gonna go to bed.

Jay (01:38.471)
I like it.

Jack Der (01:39.393)
That's called pulling from experience. And then, right?

Jay (01:42.222)
There you go. Except for me, you can talk bad about me all you want. I got no worries about it.

Jack Der (01:48.571)
We have a lot to learn there considering you're going to be coming into my neighborhood now so that would be awesome.

Jay (01:53.182)
That's right. That's right. Yeah, we are gonna get a chance to dive together often, I hope. Yeah, my move is coming up. I know this will, we were to record this and I'll probably already been moved. But yeah, it's coming up. I'm so excited to be in San Diego, to be back home. I will miss Texas for sure. And I probably need to do a goodbye Texas episode because Texas has been awesome for a lot of different reasons. And the diving has actually been awesome here and the community has been amazing.

Jay (02:23.362)
excited to get back home back to San Diego and and and jump in that that ocean with everybody and become a San Diego diver so-called diver so good

Jack Der (02:35.150)
Yeah, welcome to the bad viz. 10 to 15 foot viz is standard.

Jay (02:39.342)
Yeah, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with the cold. A beautiful ocean I'm excited about. And producer Daniel's here as well, which must mean we're recording another episode of the show. Before we get into the topic, I wanted to just give you an opportunity to introduce yourself, who you are, what you're about to the scuba verse, to the listeners out there. And man, if you don't know Jack, you're in for a big treat for these next

So Jack, the floor is yours. Let people know who you are, what you're up to.

Jack Der (03:14.970)
Well, first of all, I am just to clarify some things. I don't think I'm an expert at all. I'm kind of opinionated on some things, but not an expert. I'm always trying to learn new things. And then in the whole big scheme of things, I am a relatively new diver. So I just passed my 10-year anniversary as a diver. So it seems like it went quick and it wasn't that long ago.

Jack Der (03:45.070)
And the one thing I guess I kind of regret about that is why didn't I start diving earlier? So this is maybe why I didn't start earlier. First of all, I came from the Midwest. I'm from Minnesota originally. There's no ocean. I did grow up on lakes and did all that stuff, water skiing, fishing, and stuff like that. And as a kid dreamt of like coming to California, oh the ocean,

Jay (03:59.182)
I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me. I'm not sure if you can hear me.

Jay (04:08.607)

Jack Der (04:14.450)
that stuff. Meanwhile, you know, I went through and played college sports and that whole thing and was way into rock climbing. So I found that with a lot of these sports athletic type things I could pick up on them from an athletic point of view but then I kind of... I don't know if you heard that.

Jay (04:14.982)
Thanks for watching!

Jay (04:24.524)

Jay (04:38.289)
Your new cat is gracing us with her presence.

Jack Der (04:41.134)
Yes, she's like announcing, I'm here. Anyways.

Jack Der (04:48.850)
So I grew up doing sports and a lot of these activities and then started, for me, I started rock climbing when I was in seventh grade, so super young age. And you had to learn so many technical things and doing that at a young age to keep myself alive, so to speak. And so through the years, eventually I moved to San Diego and people go, why'd you move? I was like, well, it's always been a dream, watching those,

movies, you know, Beach Bake Blanket Bingo. I can surf like that and I found surfing was a lot harder than I thought. But I did learn how to surf and did all that stuff and I was surfing pretty much four to five days a week and I would have friends that I worked with, they're like, yeah, we're going to go get certified. I'm like, oh no, I can't afford that right now. I can't afford that right now. So I just put off for years and years and years and then literally like 10 years ago

Jay (05:20.022)

Jack Der (05:48.290)
He was way into diving more so than I thought. One day he goes, hey, you wanna try this Discover Scuba thing? And I'm like, nah. He goes, no, you'll be really good at it. I'm like, no, I don't wanna do it. And deep down I'm saying no, because I know I will really like it. And I'm like, no, I don't wanna add another thing. I'm playing volleyball, I'm snowboarding, surfing. I throw Scuba diving in there. I'm like, no, I don't wanna do it.

Jack Der (06:18.050)
of the times he asked me to say okay I'll go so we went as this is when sports play was still around and they had this pool and indoor pool went did this discover scuba went around I felt like you know like I felt like I was like already I was like the gift to scuba diving

Jack Der (06:43.250)
I've like gone, I can do this buoyancy thing. And I'm like, why is this guy keep pulling me down? Why has he pushed me underwater? Let me do this. I'm like, I can do this. Anyways, I was all replaced. I mean, there's a video of it. It's pretty embarrassing. But at the time I'm thinking like, ah man, this is super easy. I like this. And then, you know, a week or so goes by and my friend, the same one that got me to go to this Discover Scuba thing calls up and he goes, hey, what are you doing?

Jay (06:57.782)
Thanks for watching!

Jack Der (07:13.390)
blah blah blah and I'm like uh nothing why why we're gonna go I'm like I'm already say we're gonna go snowboarding what do you want to do I'll see hangs up with me uncle dude what was that

Jack Der (07:25.610)
hung up on me. They called back like five minutes later. He goes, okay I got you signed up for the open water class. You're gonna do it. I'm like, you know I don't have any of the gear right? He goes, no it's okay. I got it. My garage I have a bunch of extra stuff. I'm like, what do you mean you have a bunch of extra stuff? I mean I've been to his house and I just never like looked in his garage. And he goes, yeah you don't have to worry about a wetsuit. I'm like, dude you're like way shorter than me. Like how am I gonna fit in your wetsuit?

Jay (07:52.447)
Ha ha!

Jack Der (07:55.550)
Being he so generous, he has basically a wetsuit for every one of his friends, from little tiny kids all the way up to these my size, you know, the short stocky guys. So he has wetsuits and gear for every size person. So I went into this class having all this gear right away at my fingertips. And of course, I got addicted and then went on a trip

Jay (08:02.202)

Jack Der (08:25.874)
Yeah, I'm an expert at this stuff.

Jay (08:27.824)

Jack Der (08:29.970)
So it made me look like I knew what I was doing early on. So people are like, hey, are you a dive master? I'm like, this is dive five for me. Because I'm like, oh, because I looked the part, because I had all my own gear and everything. Well, not my own gear, but I had all the stuff. So, but then I pretty much just switched from surfing to scuba diving. So now instead of like looking at the surf report going, where in the waves gonna get bigger? I'm like, when are the waves gonna get smaller?

Jay (08:37.842)
Right. You looked apart.

Jay (08:57.142)
Wow, that's a good one. That's a good one.

Jack Der (08:59.990)
I look at the surf report for the smaller waves, went out and just dove and dove and dove so I replaced the four days of surfing to scuba diving. And so I just got way into it. I think my first year I did just under 200 dives in the first year. So I picked it up real quick, started diving the dry suit before 50 dives. That was more of a luxury because, not because I was getting cold.

I couldn't fit into the wetsuits. I mean, I hated that part. It's like, ah, why don't they make these things by size? So eventually I, you know, and that's how I got into it. And through that, that's where I, you know, you join the locals, the dive clubs, and you're just always at the ocean diving. And people just go, oh, there's Jack, there's Jack. Which, by the way, this is kind of like an ongoing running joke right now amongst

Jay (09:34.482)

Jay (09:38.667)

Jack Der (10:00.950)
randomly going places and then having someone recognize me, which I didn't think was possible. And it just, they all sit there and I see them like, as the, you know, talking to this person, like I'll be at like Catalina, Hey, aren't you Jack Dyrd? And I'm like, yeah. And I see in the background, my friends, I see this.

Jay (10:22.482)
Ha ha.

Jack Der (10:24.050)
rolling their eyes and then just to top it off two weeks ago as in Florida.

Jack Der (10:30.530)
randomly at the dive shop signing up for the boat. I'll say, hey, aren't you Jack Durr? And I'll say, I turn around and I see my dive buddy, like go, oh, you're kidding. Messaging right away, all my friends, you wouldn't believe what's going on. Someone recognized I'm here. And I'm like going, I don't, I think it's the hair.

Jay (10:48.506)

Jay (10:50.922)
Yeah, maybe maybe and the dashing good looks I think both both of those those contribute. Yeah. No one knows who I am. So it's perfect. I can I can be completely anonymous.

Jack Der (10:54.733)

Jack Der (10:59.211)
Yeah, but...

Jack Der (11:03.510)
Well, I don't know. I think it goes back to one of those things that I consider myself kind of like an introvert unless I'm passionate about something. So if I go to a party on the first one, just be like, okay, there's this drink for like two hours. And then someone goes, oh, I hear you scuba dive. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Jay (11:17.432)

Jack Der (11:33.770)
Jack scuba dives right so now all my volleyball friends. Oh Jack scuba diving again So so that's how I'm here in San Diego. You know so I mean Through that of course with all this diving and my passion for talking about diving I I would have to say I backed into working in the dive industry You know I had friends that go hey, why don't you do the professional thing?

Jay (11:39.162)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's the way it goes. No.

Jack Der (12:03.510)
going, yeah, I don't know how to teach. Still signed up for it. Did tours, you know, did some of this stuff. I'm like, ah, not really. And then I've always worked in technology. So back in the old days, I was the guy that was, I didn't talk to people, but I could present to hundreds of people at a time. So like I was an Apple guy. So I would give presentations about Apple computers, blah, blah, blah. And I'd be up there.

Jack Der (12:33.910)
things with the Mac and stuff like that. But then it's like, oh no, no, you need to go talk to that salesperson. So pretty much I do now, that was a weird statement, anyways, what I did was I've been talking about scuba diving so much that all of a sudden one day my technology job, I was doing web programming, blah blah blah, boring stuff that makes, actually makes money.

Jack Der (13:05.230)
And someone goes, hey, do you want to, there's a position open at Diving Unlimited or DUI, as some people might know by, and I'm like, oh, that'd be kind of cool, but I have no idea what an account manager is, you know, type of thing. And I'm like, yeah, whatever. But I'll call up some of my friends that might be interested. So I passed around those things. A week later, the company I'm working for goes, they call a meeting and they go, yeah, your whole department, we're moving that to Ireland.

Jay (13:20.732)

Jay (13:35.794)

Jack Der (13:36.595)
And I'm like, well, first of all, I'm like, I'm not moving to Ireland. Well, they weren't really asking.

Jay (13:42.329)

Jack Der (13:43.670)
if you get my drift. So I was like, oh, so I'll be out of a job. So I'm like calling back. So what does this account manager do? I might be interested. I'm like, that sounds way better than working on, trying to get unemployment, find another job. So next thing I know, I accepted a job at DUI as an account manager, had no idea what that was. So in fact, it's kind of like the first job that I had to like actually talk to people

Jay (13:53.025)

Jack Der (14:14.430)
like the Apple thing was like no go talk to the salespeople you know I'm the tech introvert guy so now all of a sudden I'm like having to talk to dive shop owners you know learn the names learn where they are had to kind of learn a little bit of French for some reason because I had like Eastern Canada the New England area and then the southeast which is way bigger territory than I was ready for

Jay (14:40.553)

Jack Der (14:43.830)
because you had the, you know, and by the way, if you, if people don't know, DUI makes dry suits. So I had to learn everything from the cold water end all the way to the warmer waters of Florida. So it's like the whole range. And, and again, I had some background, I would say that was expertise because I dove a lot and I dove a dry suit. So I was able to translate a lot of that into,

Jay (14:44.224)

Jack Der (15:13.790)
I was a good account manager even though I'm not an account manager anymore.

Jack Der (15:22.930)
The statement was, when you got hired here, you were hired for the, you're the worst possible person for that position. I'm like, okay, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. They go, but yet you're a really good thing for our company because you have all these other skills. I had the whole technology background. I worked in advertising, graphic design. So basically I'm doing the marketing now for that.

Jay (15:49.767)

Jack Der (15:52.330)
So in a way, I just kind of transitioned to a different way of promoting DUI. I try to promote it directly with Diver. So whenever, you know, people go, oh, you get paid for diving. I'm like. No, I wish I was getting paid for diving. I do get discounts on dive gear, but. No, I don't get paid for diving. And every time I'm out there, I'm always I still I mean, for who I am, I still help everybody out.

Jay (16:07.322)

Jay (16:22.182)

Jack Der (16:22.330)
me questions. I'll answer the questions at the detriment of my dive buddies who are like, they all dive dry suits. So they're all saying like, okay, let's go. We're all hot. We're all sweating. We need to get going. Jack, stop talking. Let's go. And I'm like, well, hang on a second. So anyways, that's a little bit about me. That's a quick long snapshot of how I got here, I guess.

Jay (16:36.122)

Jay (16:48.502)
Yeah. Yeah. And now you've made it to the dive table. So, you know, you know, the circle's complete.

Jack Der (16:54.770)
Yeah, you probably have a bigger following than my little foray into it during COVID times with DUI, which was we started a deep dive with DUI. It was actually kind of interesting in the sense because the owner of the company, well, the founder of the company is not the owner anymore, but Dick Long, one of the early, early founders of scuba diving, going way back

Jay (16:56.382)
Ha ha ha!

Jack Der (17:24.890)
scuba diving inventions, patents, the whole thing. And it was just cool to hear his old stories about everything and getting them recorded. Because, you know, it's always awesome. You know, people come in for tours and you'd hear it. And like, I need to get this recorded somehow. So I started off by interviewing him for these. And then we spread it into like talking about dry suits and other things. And it moved into. I need to invite this person because they dove in.

Jay (17:31.482)

Jack Der (17:54.850)
truck lagoon. I want to go.

Jay (17:57.902)

Jack Der (17:59.550)
So I'm asking them questions from a, oh, that's an interesting trip. And I'm thinking, hmm, how can I get there?

Jay (18:05.942)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, awesome. I'm so excited to have you on the show, like I said before, and like, you know, the wealth of passion I think that you have has led to a wealth of experience. And so these episodes are gonna be a lot of fun to have you and that experience bringing it here. And I think for today, in this episode, we wanted to focus on a topic that I think is really relevant to you, and it's relevant to everyone

diving season is kind of unofficially kicking off right now all around, at least where you get a real winter. A lot of people take a break in the winter and now the spring starting to peak its head out and I think diving starting to get back into people's blood, which is the topic around how are relationships built through diving. And I thought this would be an amazing topic for you because as you said, wherever you are, somebody says, hey, aren't you?

Jay (19:06.842)
and you spend the time to build those relationships. So that's why I thought this would be a fun one. But I also find out time and time again, I don't know about you, but scuba is a small universe. Like you see the same people on the boat, right? You see the same people here and there without any intent really of seeing them. And at the core of diving, and I think when I got into it, one of the things that was very surprising to me was how much of a team sport diving really is

Jay (19:36.002)
right, or can be. And so relationships are a part of scuba diving. No matter if you're under the water or you're above the water, they become a part of it. And so I think this conversation and this episode, maybe, you know, we will share a little bit about, you know, what we've done to build those relationships, how we maintain them and those sorts of things. But really, it's just about those meaningful relationships in scuba. Now I have to say there is a disclaimer,

Jay (20:05.962)
some of you listeners out there, this is not Jack and Jay's dating advice show. So when I say relationships, I do mean the friendships, whatever you want to call them, but I know you don't want to take relationship advice for me. I don't Jack, Jack's a good looking dude with the hair. So maybe, maybe he's got some stuff, um, for you, but this is not what this episode is about when we say relationship.

Jack Der (20:27.473)
Yeah, just so you know, the sun setting here, it's just the light reflection that you see.

Jay (20:32.382)
Yeah. My girls always make fun of me. My beard's turning white first. Nothing else is gray, but my beard has this nice white patch. And they, they always go look at those little white spots. Like, it's so funny. So, yeah, yeah, I know. So this is not about building relationships as far as dating. This is about those, you know, that Rolodex of connections that you build through diving and how you maintain those. So you ready to jump into this one, Jack?

Jack Der (20:59.150)
Sure. And apologize to all my dive friends out there. Because you have to go. This is coming from experience. So, right?

Jay (21:05.335)
I like the preemptive.

Jay (21:13.866)
This is what is this John Wick chapter Jack Durr chapter four. If you've ever wronged Jack, you're on notice today.

Jack Der (21:16.716)

Jay (21:25.822)
All right, so let's set this one up here in this first part with just, you know, the landscape of things, which is what is a scuba relationship? So are these, you know, casual acquaintances, um, you know, are there different levels that, that you have these relationships at? Um, you know, how do you know that you've actually formed a, let's call it a friendship relationship, a connection with somebody through scuba. So I don't know what, what, what would you define as a scuba relationship, someone that you,

you kind of gotten to know through scuba.

Jack Der (21:59.090)
Well, it's, I mean, it goes back to those layers that you talked about. I mean, just with anyone that you meet in general, you're gonna have, this is just like a name I know. Okay, you've seen their name or you've seen this person out there before. Then there's the people that you've regularly like, oh yeah, you're diving, why don't you come dive with us? Right, so you have people that are more frequent in your circle and as you get smaller into your circle, you'll have the people that you're always

Jack Der (22:29.630)
Hey, are we diving tomorrow? Are we doing this tomorrow? All the way down to, yes, people can build those relationships that you're talking about, the dating ones. That was never my goal, but it does happen. So I guess there's all those different layers.

Jay (22:49.782)
Yeah. Yeah. I think they're for me, the same has been true. Like there's, there's kind of the, the Insta buddy layer, right? Where you're on a boat and, uh, you know, the dive master points at you and points at somebody else's, you guys are paired up and you go, okay. And sometimes, you know, you're, you're just holding your breath. You're not sure what's going to happen, you know, but those have turned into awesome friendships, but there's kind of that layer, that first layer of like, you know, I see you around or,

you know, we got paired up just out of sheer dumb luck that happens, right? Um, it's kind of that first layer for me.

Jack Der (23:23.376)

Jack Der (23:29.510)
So for me, I mean, I kind of took this as another level because I was very active in one of the local dive clubs. I actually dealt with several of them, but one of the dive clubs, because I was kind of like always there, again, I kind of backed my way into being a dive host. Like, Jack's here. Jack, can you get that waiver? I'm like, I'm not a host. Oh, do you want to be a host? I don't know, no.

Jay (23:51.250)

Jay (23:55.326)

Jack Der (23:58.890)
do. I'm like, okay. So I would be that host, right? And you start meeting all these people and you remember the names once they're repetitive because you don't know if like San Diego you get so many people visiting. You know they don't know their way around. Not everybody wants to pay for you know our guide so to speak. So they find the clubs which are fine especially if you live locally or something like that and you want to start being part of that community. So

Jack Der (24:28.850)
Maybe I was a little bit different than most of the hosts. You're not supposed to, from a liability standpoint as a host, buddy people together because you don't want to be liable for like, obviously reasons of, because you don't know what people's skills are. And so as a host, I felt that I was, I probably took a little more risk than I should, where people would, that knew each other already, would usually buddy up.

Jay (24:46.103)

Jack Der (24:58.890)
They go, oh, I have a steel 100, I have aluminum 80, blah, blah, blah. We are doing this. They'd start diving together. And they would build their own little, sorry. I have, I live right by Miramar. I don't know if you can hear that. That is a jet. It's a little late for them though. Um, they usually do it during the day. Anyways, so you don't want to buddy people up, but then there'd always be the odd leftover person and so I always took it on myself to dive with that person.

Jay (25:10.828)
Oh, that's a jet going over the overhead there.

Jay (25:27.766)

Jack Der (25:29.330)
me being a dive professional, but yet also, I tried the work on being a good buddy, and then make that person's experience that much better. Because like you're saying, the Insta buddy thing, if it's two new divers and they're diving together, it's not always the best situation because one, they could both be like on dive eight, or something like that, where they can't necessarily look out for themselves

Jay (25:53.648)

Jack Der (25:58.850)
their buddy. So I was able to go out with these people and be that good dive buddy for them. And then that would be the welcoming environment so they'd keep coming back. So that's how I built a lot of these relationships with people. Plus, I always liked going out for food afterwards because a lot of these dives were after work. And so we'd go down the La Jolla shores, go dive, and then I'm like, oh, we got to go for food. So I'm like

Jay (26:11.282)

Jack Der (26:28.870)
Hey everyone, we're gonna go out for pizza and beer. Come on, we'll just go have pizza and beer. We can talk about diving. And it's like, hey, you guys didn't even dive with us. Just come join us. We'll talk about diving. And so I found that the community of cells, they like talking about scuba. So it was kind of easy to get people involved that way.

Jay (26:32.103)

Jay (26:41.067)

Jay (26:51.642)
Yep. Yep. No, I think that's a good, it's a good thought because there's two sides of that Insta buddy coin. Like you're saying there's one side of it that you get paired up with someone randomly, but there's another side of it where if you are a more, I don't want to say experience, but more comfortable diver. If you're comfortable in your skin and that word, comfortability has come up a lot in season two, um, as a, as a gateway into relaxing and enjoying diving when you're comfortable doing it.

But when you're more comfortable taking somebody that maybe is less comfortable or newer to the sport And those sorts of things. I think it's amazing, right? I think that that's that's a that's a really important takeaway from what you said in terms of taking responsibility to Of some not not necessarily responsibility but taking responsibility upon yourself to try and help somebody else have an amazing time and that Um, that I think is really cool I think there's also a

Jay (27:51.622)
and the scuba relationships in, in courses. So a lot of people meet during training together. Right. So oftentimes you, you and a friend may sign up for a course together, but then there's, you know, five other people, six other people, however many people there, um, that are going to then be in the same training with you. And I know I've taken, taken training where I knew nobody before and now we're training together. Right. And you, you learn, um, really

very quickly about people and you're kind of in it with them. And there's, there's an opportunity there. I've met some amazing people through training as well. So I think that's another layer. Maybe there's the Insta buddy layer, there's the training partner and at some level, because you're not just fun diving together, you're actually, you know, trying to achieve something together that there's another layer of relationship that gets built there in my mind. And then for me, I have to go ahead.

Jack Der (28:46.950)
Yeah, a lot of it has to. Yeah, no, I'm saying and a lot of that when you when you meet that person in the class or in that diving environment, it's also partially the schedule. I mean, because if you go in the scuba diving and you go, oh my I hear it all the time. I would be diving more, but my dive buddies always busy or they're no longer diving. So I'm like, then why did you stop right? Find somebody else that has a similar schedule that wants to dive.

Jay (29:14.102)
Yeah, no, that's a great point. I mean, we we tried to do or we have continued to do these Tuesday night dives here in Texas where it's just hey, every Tuesday after work, we're all going to be there. We try to get in the water first dive at this time. And that's our sunset dive. And then we do a night dive if you're sticking around afterwards. And it's that consistency, right? It's the consistency of schedule, and that you can plan for it. I mean, everyone has different circumstances, you know, some people are, you know, working

hours at work and have to move things around so they can make that schedule work. Some people have kids and have to get, you know, make sure childcare is taken care of if they're going to be gone, those sorts of things. So I agree. I think there's a scheduling piece of this. And I think that being a good, being in a good relationship, let's put it that way, without going into the other side of it, is predictability is a part of it, right? And showing up is 90% of the game. And so that's good.

Yeah. And then for me, I have kind of two other layers of scuba relationships. One is there's what we, we call in the training I've done is your team, right? Your dive team. That's something I've put a lot of effort and work into building a team, which really that means it's someone that I'm aligned with in my training, especially when it comes to, you know, our emergency protocols and things like that, um, that I can get in the water with on a regular basis and know that

that we're in a similar view of a philosophy of diving. It's kind of team. And then I've just recently learned this fourth layer, which is new to me, which is then there's another layer of team, which I'm calling right now like my core team, which is someone who I will do any dive with, especially the really challenging dives. So I learned pretty quickly, like, you know, when it comes to tech diving, you know, you have to really think about who you get in the water with,

because at the end of the day, that other person is going to be someone that, you know, potentially is going to save your life and vice versa. And recreationally, that's also true. It can also very, very well be true. But there's a little less risk in the recreational profiles. When you start to dive the technical profiles, all of a sudden, I want to know that the person across from me knows the plumbing that's on my back, right? And knows if something goes wrong, they know what to do, right?

trust their training to kick in at that point, right? So that's a new layer for me of this, this core team versus just dive team. Um, but I think those for me is kind of the, the landscape of scuba relationships, at least that I've experienced.

Jack Der (31:58.210)
Yeah, so even with that core team that you're talking about, it's not necessarily somebody also that's maybe perfectly aligned with you. At least you, in your mindset, knows that this person has their strengths, and you can rely on them. But at the same time, you may know some of their weaknesses. So they may save you, but of course you'll get lost. But.

Jay (32:16.104)

Jay (32:19.526)

Jay (32:25.770)

Jack Der (32:27.410)
Something like that. I mean, I'm joking. The people I dive with, I'm always feeling 100% confident that they're gonna be there for me. By the way, there's another layer that you kind of like totally glossed over. If you get into photography.

Jay (32:41.704)

Jay (32:46.166)
Oh yeah.

Jay (32:49.027)

Jack Der (32:49.690)
There's a, also in your like.

Jack Der (32:53.270)
Where'd everybody go?

Jay (32:53.762)
Oh, I'm all by myself. Yeah.

Jack Der (32:58.130)
So there's that kind of layer too, but again, most people that, you know, like in that case, you kind of know that if you're doing a certain kind of photography, macro photography or something like that, you know that if someone stops, they probably stopped, they're not wandering off, right? And then they know the general path or the concept of where we're going. So it's not like they wandered so far away. You know, La Jolla Shores, it's like 15 feet away and they're, are they there? And it's like a little light shines, you go, okay, they're right there.

Jay (33:14.346)

Jack Der (33:27.970)
You know, so it's but so in that whole photography world some people call it that same ocean buddy thing But again you do have to be confident with those divers because they are going in with a lot of times Big heavy cameras and all this other stuff. So they got to be Good divers to start off with right especially for Going through surf sometimes in San Diego at these big cameras and then going down there and they got the surge and bad visibility

Jay (33:33.992)

Jack Der (33:57.470)
got to be able to handle themselves. You know, you got to trust that they can do that stuff. At the same time, you're looking for them and they're looking for you.

Jay (33:59.267)

Jay (34:05.962)
Yeah. Yeah. I have some, some good friends and, and dive team members that are photographers. And I always laugh about diving with them because I feel like my dive is spent watching them take photos. Like that's basically what I'm doing. Cause I want to be there, right? I don't, I'm not going to walk away from them. Um, but the benefit to me, the flip side of that is that I have a lot of really cool underwater photos of myself because they'll flip the camera and go, Oh, you're still here. You know, if pose for a second or whatever, and we get the

Jay (34:35.882)
as well, because I'm not a photographer. I don't know, you know, that, that, that bone wasn't built in my body, for some reason to see the shot, like, I just don't see it. And so it's cool for me, I get to observe, instead of just being bored, looking at the butt of my, you know, photographer friend while he's taking pictures, I try to imagine what do they see? What are they seeing? Can I see what they're seeing? And then I get to look at the photos later and say, Oh, you know, I did get the I knew what he was looking at there or, or Whoa, I was

Jack Der (34:57.234)

Jay (35:06.142)
off. I had no idea and things. And so I do a lot of the GoPro when I'm teaching, but that's a whole different thing, right? That's just, I'm getting, I'm capturing something so we can look at it later. It's not, you know, it's as long as it's in frame for the most part, you're fine. And so I've found that I've, I've actually benefited a lot from diving with photographers because they're showing me a way to look at the environment

Jack Der (35:19.350)

Jay (35:36.082)
all of it, but they can focus on the little salamander that's endemic to that spring that I just completely missed because I wasn't looking for it. And they were. And so yeah, I think that photography diving is definitely a whole subject unto itself. But being a person that doesn't do photography, but trying to be a teammate, a good teammate, I've actually found a lot of benefit than being sitting there. You could complain about it too. I'm bored. Did you get your shot?

you know, like there's other things to see. But I've just found a piece with like, oh, let me try and imagine what they're imagining and what they're seeing. It's been a real benefit to me as a diver.

Jack Der (36:16.230)
Yeah, I mean, all of it works out to be in a way it's, especially the photos part. I mean, it's always good to show, you know, when people go, oh, you're scuba diving, what do you see? It's like, do you see sharks? I'm like, yeah, I saw a shark. It was about this big, it was a horn shark, so vicious, laying there going.

Jay (36:31.518)
I'm out.

Jay (36:35.530)
Ha ha!

Jack Der (36:37.990)
But it's opening up that world. It's kind of like the whole Jacques Cousteau thing, with all his shows that he did promoting scuba diving and just the ocean in general. We can all be those ambassadors to share it with other people. So it becomes, again, like I said, that talking point for me. So it's like, oh, there I am pulling out my phone, going through the Facebook photos. Hey, see this photo? I took that photo. And at the same time,

Jay (37:01.382)
I'm out.

Jack Der (37:07.670)
you can bounce that stuff back and forth. It's a good talking point, like, hey, did you see this? You know, oh, I didn't see that. Oh, that was right there. You know, so even with your friends that are not diving with cameras, like you said, you can show them other things that they're not maybe seeing. You know, it just opens up different possibilities. There's so many different things, you know, that create those, like you said, the relationships amongst your diving. You know, I have my tech friends, you know, we go and do the cave dives.

Jay (37:24.124)

Jack Der (37:37.190)
video or watching the video and you're like on how long is this video? Yeah, it's like two hours long.

Jack Der (37:46.690)
It was more exciting when we were doing it.

Jay (37:49.042)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Look at that wet rock and look at that wet rock. There's another wet rock.

Jay (37:55.582)
Yeah, exactly. Well, good. So I think, I think we have a good handle on what, what determines you're in a scuba relationship, right? How do I know I'm in scuba? Well, when you're probably talking scuba, and you're diving together, and you're spending that time getting to know those people underwater. I mean, I always, you know, an instructor of mine said it best, I always thought about it as, you know, the

Jay (38:25.662)
tells the truth is a better way to put it. And so the minute you get in the water with somebody, you see truth, you see who they are in a lot of ways, because, you know, you're lopping off any sort of audible communication, you're lopping off really words, you're lopping off all sorts of things that we use as humans to communicate. And so the water tells you the truth, you get in the water, you look in their eyes, right, and you and you know the truth of that person quickly. And I think

Jay (38:55.662)
a really interesting thing, but I also find that for me, at least the people that I really get connected to are the people that you can be on a four hour, like we took a four hour truck ride out to a dive site that we were, we were doing some exploration on and it was four hours there and four hours back. And we never ran out of something to talk about related to scuba nonstop, like eight hours of scuba conversation. And I just love those,

Jay (39:25.682)
about their experiences and tell stories and can actually dissect a dive and say, this was really good, this could have been better, those sorts of things. So yeah, I think we covered these, how you're in a relationship.

Jack Der (39:40.833)
Except for me on a long dive boat trip, I'm the guy sleeping.

Jay (39:45.622)

Jack Der (39:50.311)
one of my friends going back to those photographer friends really why are they always taking photos of me sleepy?

Jay (39:58.543)
That's good to know. I have to have my camera ready. I have yet to sleep or puke on a boat, knock on whatever woods close to me. I almost, they called it the VIP section, the vomiting in progress section. I almost made a trip on this last trip that I was out and actually I was on the floor as well. But I didn't,

Jack Der (40:00.078)
Is it really that funny?

Jay (40:26.382)
I've heard it's amazing, but I have to have to get there at some point. I'm always just on alert. Like I'm just, you know, so, so much. Um, I'm so happy I'm there that I'm all pumped up, you know, and it's hard for me to kind of come off of that. I I'll go to sleep when I get home type of thing.

Jack Der (40:42.910)
Yeah, it's always like one of those things though, too, the conditions. If the, if the ride's nice, then it's, it can, it's easy to either fall asleep or be comfortable in your environment and you can talk and, and sit in the galley and talk with people. Um, and then there's the trip I was in, uh, Australia and you're, we're talking to the people and they're going, yeah, we canceled the boat. And I'm like, why? And they go, oh, it's going to be a vomitron. I'm like, oh, that's an awesome term.

Jay (41:07.443)

Jack Der (41:11.179)
I'm going to have to use that one.

Jay (41:12.782)
Yeah, the Vomitron, I like that. Yeah, gross. Oh, gross. Yeah, that's one thing I can't do as a parent.

Jack Der (41:18.190)
But well, maybe you're gifted without this motion thing because I do have other friends that they can be out on the boat and it's like pitching back and forth. People are sick and they're just like having a hot dog. I'm like.

Jay (41:31.182)
Yeah, that's not gonna way. That's usually how I am. I usually am just fine. But for whatever reason that day, I felt it. And, and I was I was very upset with myself that I hadn't taken the drama mean the night before. So good tip out there. Take your drama mean they have non jazzy time drumming now I think it's ginger based the night before and the morning of even if you think you won't get sick. Because then you're making sure it's not gonna happen. helps a lot.

Jack Der (42:00.690)
Yeah, yeah, definitely take it the night before because it takes hours to get in your system. If you take it as you're getting on the boat, it's not doing anything. All that's going to do is give you a good nap after you get back.

Jay (42:12.022)
Exactly. You'll be nice and comfortable after you've vomited it all out. All right. Well, let's move on to this next segment, which is really around, well, how do you build relationships? We touched a little bit about it on the first part here, but I think, how have you approached those relationships? How have you approached building meaningful relationships? Are there things involved with maintaining them? And is it only scuba,

Or does it extend into real life? Like not just scuba and pizza and beer, but are there other things that your scuba friends that you've met that you end up doing things with and things like that. So I don't know, how have you approached that?

Jack Der (42:57.510)
I mean, yeah, I mean, they all start off as just kind of like that acquaintance that you're diving with, you know, going out and talking. Um, and then a lot of those, I would say the, the core people, you know, that I talk with about scuba or dive with all the time, it goes beyond just diving. Now we will, we plan, well, Hey, let's go out to dinner, you know, Hey, it's a Christmas, do you have a, you know, come on over to our house, you know?

Jack Der (43:27.610)
it's opened up new friends that maybe you wouldn't have been friends with. I mean, just like with anything, you build those relationships. So I think it's just a natural path. And for someone who, like myself, is an introvert, it's easy to go, oh, we're having a party. Can I invite some scuba friends so I can have some people to talk to?

Jack Der (43:54.630)
So yeah, I mean it's, I think it definitely goes beyond and then you start planning trips with those people. I mean I have, you know, friends that no longer live in San Diego. They still live in Southern California. We still plan trips, you know, I still go, hey we're going, you know, oh you're going to Mexico. I'm going, let's go, you know. So we still have those things that are in common, you know, as long as your schedules line up or, you know, you just

You're driving through San Diego. Come on, let's go have a beer You know, even I even have a friend that I knew from high school in Minnesota Saw me on one of those deep dive with DUI podcasts He goes hey, I think I know that guy from high school and he happened to be out in San Diego and now it regenerated a new friendship or Not new but regenerated a friendship into something today You know around scuba diving that was never part of

Jay (44:38.764)

Jack Der (44:54.050)
of our original, you know, knowing each other type of thing.

Jay (44:57.562)
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, um, it's really interesting because one of the, one of the funny questions you can ask yourself is how do you make new friends as an adult? Like, you know, like as a kid, you're in the same class, you're in the same circumstances, you know, you meet on the playground or you're in the same dance class and things. I mean, there's a lot that, that connects kids, at least my kids to other kids and they become almost instant friends,

Jay (45:27.582)
I can't even track it anymore. Right? Who's your bestie today? Right? Because it's just a natural path.

Jack Der (45:28.992)

Jack Der (45:33.393)
And you have three daughters, that's constantly changing. They're a friend today and not a friend tomorrow.

Jay (45:35.902)
Yeah. Yeah. It's constantly changing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been accepted from the boys drool girls rule statement except for you, daddy. Boys rule or boys drool girls rule except for you, which is nice. I like that one. But yeah, you know, it's tough as an adult. And when we moved here to Texas, I really only knew a handful of people here and they were more acquaintances. And so it was tough

Jay (46:05.782)
Diving has been a pathway for me to have built in the last four or four and a half years, deep relationships, friendships here that have come through diving. And I think for me, one of the things that I've approached is to always try and be open. Even at a place of your hands are open, you're ready to receive. And I think sometimes in diving, at least I've observed this and I don't know if you've seen the same thing.

Jay (46:35.782)
coach with their arms crossed and, you know, let's prove yourself to me or, you know, judging, you know, someone's dive gear or someone's, you know, dive and, oh, look at that, you know, Muppet out there in the water doing X, Y, and Z, you know. And there is kind of this, there's this dark side of scuba in some ways that's very ego driven. And I think it's funny, you mentioned earlier, you know, I felt like I was God's gift to diving.

Jay (47:05.902)
you know, that feeling sometimes at least I've observed that. And so I think like, for me, if you're going to build a relationship with anybody, but especially in diving, look, it's recreational, it's fun. You know, it's meant to be that. And it, you know, no one's out there to have the evaluation checklist of whether or not you know, you're up to par to my diving. And so I think it's, you know, I've tried to approach things always with be open, be open that there's always

Jay (47:36.182)
there's a human being behind that diver and and be open to their experience of you and make sure that that's a pleasant one on the dive boat or at the dive site or those sorts of things and I think that that for me has been a huge part of my approach is that you know, there is no such thing as a bad diver or you know a person that you know needs to be

Jay (48:05.782)
their dive skills. I think there are people that I connect with more than others and that has nothing to do with their dive skills, right? It has a lot to do with who they are as humans. And so, you know, for example, I was in Mexico and on a trip, dive trip down there and met a guy who was on the boat and we got to chatting. I think he was from Denmark and he was out there all by himself, just came out and wanted to do the diving. And

Jay (48:35.822)
the dining hall, you know, my fan, I was there with my family, the song and he was sitting by himself. And I just went over and said, Hey, man, like, I've got three kids, so it's not going to be a deep conversation dinner. And you might get spaghetti thrown at you. But hey, if you if you want to come join us for dinner, and then we started to see him around, you know, the, the the hotel we were staying at, he joined us for dinner, we got a block, we had a blast getting to know each other, we stay in touch through WhatsApp. And that's just that

Jay (49:06.242)
look like I'm open to receive rather than I'm closed to judge. And I think that's an orientation that's important if you're going to build relationships in diving.

Jack Der (49:18.510)
Yeah, I've noticed a lot of the same thing. It's like you meet people, and it's kind of like the icebreaker, right? Diving, it allows people to kind of come in. I mean, with anything, people are people. I mean, some people are just, you'll click with some people and some people you won't. There'll be drama here or there. Especially like you said, the dive community sometimes is kind of small. So you find there's little things sometimes you kind of go, oh, I thought that was,

I thought drama was only in, you know, XYZ, you know, at the office, you know, but oh wait, it's also at scuba diving? No, can't happen. I'm like, oh wait, people are people. But yeah, otherwise, yeah, I find it's definitely that icebreaker that allows people to kind of like, you know, move beyond that initial step. You know, I mean, that's, like I said, I'd invite people just to go have, you know, beer and food. Yeah, go talk.

So, but the other thing, like you're saying.

Jack Der (50:24.910)
I'd always joke with my friends. There's like the cool kids club because people will get intimidated by somebody real easy. So like when I would dive with those new divers, they would always look at me and go, no, no, I don't want to ruin your dive. I'm like, no, I want to dive with you. I want to help you. And they look at me and I'm like in a dry suit, I have all this stuff, you know, a long hose, blah, blah, and they're like,

Jack Der (50:55.030)
having all this gear. I'm like, no, it's just I've accumulated this. This is how I'm diving. When we're underwater, we're still just going to dive. You know, it's not like I'm, I get it that maybe you are a dive 20 or something like that and you're still renting some of your gear. It's, I was basically, well, I wasn't really at the same place, but essentially at the same place. I didn't own my own gear then. Right. But you all have to start

Jay (51:18.644)
Right, right.

Jack Der (51:24.990)
extra stuff. It might be a little hard if someone has a DPV and you don't.

Jay (51:29.342)
Yeah, that's hard. Unless you can grab their fins and just hold on.

Jack Der (51:34.230)
I mean, I do have a bunch of friends in the scooter club. And I'm like.

Jack Der (51:40.951)
I don't have one yet.

Jay (51:40.982)
Yeah. Oh, that's, that's almost an immediate purchase for me when I get to San Diego for that shore, that shore swim on the, at the shores is just no, let's just scooter it and park it at the, at the edge of the cliff. Like that, that sounds a lot better to me. It is that, Hey, I exercise is a pull on the trigger, right? And so that's, that's good exercise too. Hand dexterity. Yeah. Yeah. I think,

Jack Der (51:56.021)
No, it's exercise.

Jay (52:10.882)
it's true. And I think the opposite can be true too. Like, I've know I've experienced for myself, you know, I put on a set of doubles and you know, a long hose and a necklace. And, and I see, you know, the, the black flag come up over my head and like, Oh, he's that guy. And I think, I think again, like there's, there's that try to remain out of judgment. I know I feel it like, Oh, you know, those that he thinks he knows it all. It's like, I haven't even opened my mouth and I'm just, this is how I dive.

And then I always try to just say, Oh, how was, you know, how was your dive or what are you guys planning for this? And just be open and personable and not judgmental. Because you know, there's two sides of that coin. There's one the intimidation side, and to the judgment side that the minute you put a long hose on, you're now raising this black pirate flag that you think you know it all. And that's come from experience, I think, for people, I think people have experienced experienced divers being a holes to them and judging them. And so I don't know.

Jay (53:11.822)
I think in all of life, but especially when it comes to diving, because it is recreation. It is meant for fun. It isn't no one's, you know, our professional version is not the pro skater and pro surfer circuit, right? It's we're not competing against anybody except for ourselves. Really. Can we do it better? The next dive, right? How we dialed in that back kick where it's, it's at a place where I can trust it, right? We're competing against ourselves.

Jay (53:40.982)
people's experiences, but also being open about like, man, I really f that up. You know, I like, I love talking about the stupid things that I I've made. I remember I was on a training diet and, and I'm looking at, I'm going, God, like someone's kicking up the silt. Like what's going on? You know, like this is terrible. And I looked behind me and it's me. No, like, no, this can't be, I got so focused on something. You know, I let my fins dip and I'm the one kicking up this, the silt.

right? And, and of course, I got raked over the coals by my instructor about it, because he just had it all on video, like, look at Jay, do the farming here, you know, like, oh, geez. But

Jack Der (54:21.030)
Yeah, so all my good DiveBuddy friends, they all have photos and video.

Jay (54:27.182)
Of you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You drop in something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I think that's the openness goes in the way that it's not just, you know, a false sense of like, oh, yeah, that's cool. It's, it's the genuine interest in somebody else and somebody else's experience. And I love what you said earlier about, like taking responsibility for that on your own of, of looking at somebody else's experience of something,

Jack Der (54:28.515)
I'm like, thanks, where'd it go?

Jay (54:57.122)
our own. And that's that's that openness that I think is is key if you're going to build long term relationships in scuba.

Jack Der (55:05.050)
Yeah, so I mean, and like that whole intimidation thing, going back to that just a little bit. No, I mean, I dive in aluminum 80 tank as my general recreational dive tank. And then you go and dive with someone that's newer and they're like, oh, I don't want to wreck your dive. I'm like, it's just aluminum 80. I mean, I'm not expecting to be down here for two hours. I'm just doing this for fun. So, and they go, oh, sorry, the dive was so short.

Jay (55:35.904)
Exactly. Yeah.

Jack Der (55:35.990)
you know and it's like you were safe with me right so yes you were going through the air faster it doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy the dive I still saw stuff you know and you know worst-case scenario it's like I got the endorphins of being under the water and and the stress of the day is gone

Jay (55:54.042)
Yeah, you're good. Exactly. Oh, exactly. Yeah. And I, and I think, I think too, the, um, that comes back to the passion of it. Right. And I, I always joke like I'm happy in a five foot pool and I'm happy on a super deep technical dive, right. Um, well deep as I'm tech one right now. So I can only go to certain depths, but, um, I'm happy on that dive. Right. And it's, it's the, the fact that I'm underwater.

Jay (56:23.982)
is the most important part to me. And then everything else is secondary. And I know some people it's a little different. And I think it depends, that's a mindset question, right? That you're really bringing up, which is if your expectation was to breathe that 80 down to, you know, it's dry bones where, you know, the IP starts to tick a little bit, right? Because you wanna spend every second under the water and you expected to get from this point on the dive site to this point and back and see seven sharks

Right on the way and anyone that stands in your way is now an obstacle to that that goal That's a mindset thing right versus him. I'm happy. I'm going out recreationally I'm happy to get wet right and I'm happy to have that dive now some dives you do you want to plan? This is what we're gonna do and this is what we expect and those are different dives that you do with different people But most of the time when you're talking about building new relationships

Jack Der (57:13.297)

Jay (57:24.162)
towards, you know, hey I'm happy to be here and underwater and that's all that really matters.

Jay (57:32.882)
Okay. I think we beat that one up. Boom, boom. We've beaten the deadhairs. All right. Well, let's, let's wrap this one up with maybe some advice. Um, I think we've given some, you've given some good advice. I have no idea how my advice is, is, is a reading right now, but, um, if you want to,

Jack Der (57:32.951)
Yep, that's till it.

Jack Der (57:48.810)
Now it's when you go back in, I always go back and when I listen to myself, I'm like, oh, what did he say? Oh, ah, I'm like, can we delete that part?

Jay (57:55.124)
Ha ha ha!

Jay (57:57.462)
Yeah. Yeah. Producer Daniel always makes me go back and listen to the episode. And it's always like, I find myself either going, Oh, what? Why did I say it that way? Or, hey, make sure I really hope I say this. And then I say it, I'm like, hey, high five to myself. Like, I'm glad I said that. Like, that was what I was thinking. Like, oh, yeah, Doug, because that's me on the podcast. That's my brains for it. Right. So, alright, well, let's wrap this up with with maybe some advice

Jay (58:28.602)
Divers that want to build relationships through diving. What advice do you have? And I think in this, you know, what makes a good relationship? Is there a time to say sayonara? Right? Is there a time to say like, you know, maybe this isn't a good fit for me. Right? What advice do you have in terms of building those relationships through scuba and maintaining them over time?

Jack Der (58:54.230)
I'd say in general, don't take things overly personal, because you don't know really what the other person's mindset is or what their goals are. So they may become your best friends and other people may just go, you know, we just don't click. So if someone, but you thought maybe you did, but they're like, no, we're done. Don't take it personal, because everyone's on a different place, right?

Jay (59:17.182)

Jack Der (59:23.750)
You know, yes, I work in the scuba diving industry, but this person may be working, you know, pharmaceuticals. This person, you know, may work, you know, as a mechanic or, you know, you don't know where they're coming from in their life, you know, and where they're at. So don't.

Jack Der (59:40.670)
I don't take it personal sometimes if people either don't want to be part of that or, or just be happy that you have a bunch of friends that you're, you're building those relationships with. I mean, I see it all the time. People start off as a big group and then those big groups turn into little satellites. They become their own little hub. It's not like I don't know them. It's not like I didn't dive with them at one point in time, but they're doing their own thing now. So that's, that's cool. We still like,

Jack Der (01:00:10.610)
into each other all the time and they go, hey, how's it going? How was the dive? You know, you joke around, you know, on the surface, but you're maybe not diving.

Jay (01:00:18.582)
Hmm. Yeah, that's good advice. I think, I think it's, it's hard. It can be a hard pill to swallow. Right. Because, you know, like you said, humans are humans. And, and if you view that as the cool kids club that you're not invited to, right, then it becomes this, this personal thing. But I think also maintaining the fact that like, I'm comfortable in my own skin and with my my dive buddies and who I click with, and we're

of what we're doing, right? And so, and then there's cross pollination that can occur there. So totally agree, I think that's great advice for somebody. Like don't take things too personally and maybe dot, dot, dot and too seriously, unless it has to be a serious dive. You know, if it's a serious dive, take it seriously, right? But if it's not, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying is like, most of the time, you know, you're having a, you don't have to take yourself so seriously.

Jack Der (01:01:07.590)
Right, I'm talking about friendships with the diving.

Jay (01:01:18.582)
Uh, relaxing the things. The other advice I might add to this is, um, I kind of call it the scuba boomerang effect. Except I've learned this is that, you know, if you want to build meaningful relationships, think long-term and that maybe is, goes back to your point of don't take things personally is that everything in scuba, how you behave on the boat, what you do, you know, all that stuff will come back to you at some point, like it boomerangs back to

at some point, whether it's the same people or, you know, because scuba is a small, I don't want to call it like a small community because there are lots of people that dive, but the people that are really consistent with it, it's a small community. And so it comes back to you, you know, and that's where some of that I've experienced at least observed, I should say it better, I've observed some of the drama coming out, right is, is in those boomerang effects. Well, I heard you said blah, blah, blah, or, you know, oh, that

Jay (01:02:18.802)
Oh man, you know gets coming back to them what was said I literally I will not name names here but we were we wanted to have a particular guest on the show in season one and That guest we were really excited about But in order to come on the show that guest requested us to sign a document as a show That said we would never have this other individual on the show and I was like this is crazy

Jay (01:02:48.762)
wants you to come on the show but man the blood runs you know real thick and real deep and the hurts real big if like that's your concern about coming on a podcast is that somebody else never gets to come on the podcast uh you know we don't want to be in the middle of that so thanks but no thanks um

Jack Der (01:03:06.490)
Yeah, and that's just people being people. They butt heads. I mean, that's one of the things I know is being in the dive industry now is my circle of scuba divers has gone beyond San Diego. And you start, I see that happening even on the East Coast. And it's like, but I'm in San Diego, but you hear all this stuff going on. You're like, what? Come on, people, just get back to diving. It's like, just relax. It's like...

Jay (01:03:32.482)

Jay (01:03:37.222)
Yep. Yep. And I think that boomerang effect is a good thing to keep in mind because you know, Hey, everyone has a bad day. I'm sure I've been in a hole on a boat before. I guarantee it's happened. Um, without me wanting to be, cause I just had a bad day or I just, you know, came across the wrong way or whatever. But I always try to put myself in the mindset of like, I want to show up in my best self on this boat because we're all here for fun and we're all here out of the love of being under the water and the ocean or

or the spring or whatever the river that you're in. And is that, I mean, I could instead be working in an Excel spreadsheet right now. Like that's what we all could be doing instead of this or, you know, a hard labor or whatever it might be. And instead we're diving. So like, let's make sure I'm showing up in my best self because this is not a proving ground for how cool I am. This is a, you know, a place to build

relationships, regardless of the level of diver that that person might be.

Jack Der (01:04:42.890)
Yeah, that's, I agree.

Jay (01:04:45.962)
All right. Well, this has been fun. It's a sticky subject a little bit because, you know, we're, it's one of those things you're never sure exactly how to approach it.

Jack Der (01:04:51.891)

Jack Der (01:04:55.230)
especially when you consider yourself an introvert.

Jack Der (01:05:00.250)
Hmm. Interesting topic. Ha.

Jay (01:05:01.262)
Yeah, yeah, no, it's very, it's very interesting. I consider I think I'm an extrovert. They always say it's where do you draw your energy from? And, like, I love being around people, but not I like small, deep relationships rather than, you know, large, I'm kind of the same at the party, like, you know, hang out until I meet those couple people I really click with, and then I'm just gonna, then I'm having fun, you know, but before that, it's like, it's loud. And I don't

Jay (01:05:31.522)
and I'm here because my wife asked me to come and so I did. But I think I get a lot of energy from those relationships with people, which I think puts me in the extrovert category. And I really enjoy hanging out with other people. But I think it is interesting. That would be an interesting episode, the extroverted version of Scuba and the introverted version. What is the introvert thinking? What is the extrovert thinking in this scenario?

Jay (01:06:01.202)
your episode to come.

Jack Der (01:06:01.491)
Yeah, yeah, so I categorize myself if I'm talking about scuba, I'm an extrovert. If it's anything else, you know, like other just random small talk, I'm like, oh, awkward.

Jay (01:06:18.182)
So the next episode we'll be talking about movies and popcorn. So Jack will not be here. No, I'm kidding.

Jack Der (01:06:27.550)
depends on what movie.

Jay (01:06:28.862)
That's true. That's true. That's true. It does depend on the movie. We'll be talking about Gone with the Wind. So I don't know. I don't know how you feel about that one. Well, good. Let's wrap this up. So today we focused on the sticky topic of how do you build relationships through diving? You know, what does that look like? But we would love to hear your thoughts. Shoot us a message, right? Send us a whatever an

Jay (01:06:58.942)
out. How do you approach building relationships and diving? Have you built any meaningful relationships in your diving career? How is it going? What are some things and advice that you might share? We'd love to hear from you because I'm sure there's lots of ways to approach this topic out there and lots of things that have gone well. Or have you found a love connection through SCUBA? That would be even more interesting. So hit Jack and I up. Let us know your experience and we'd love to hear from you.

Jack Der (01:07:27.451)
Awesome, thanks for having me on.

Jay (01:07:30.182)
Yep. And if you enjoy the episode and you want to be part of the community, make sure that you subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. So that way you get notified when new episodes drop. Any parting thoughts, Jack?

Jack Der (01:07:46.950)
Oh, tons of thoughts, but no, I mean, no, in general, I mean, all I can say is if you are interested in scuba diving, the community is there for you to get invited into. Just take the time and effort and it's fun.

Jay (01:07:52.002)
Any you're willing to share?

Jack Der (01:08:17.532)
they tend to get very passionate about and it's easy to get kind of sucked into it so to speak.

Jay (01:08:24.422)
kidding. Literally quite literally down, down, down, down into the depths of Suba. Well, good. Thanks so much for joining us today. And we look forward to having you back on the next episode of the dive table.