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May 8, 2023

Diving Wet or Dry with Jack Der of DUI S2E7 Part I

Jay (00:06.010)
Welcome to the dive table. I'm Jay Gardner and with me again, coming live all the way from San Diego, California, my new hometown. Well, not really. It's my old hometown that I left and then I came back to. So I don't know how you qualify that. It's my hometown, it's home. Is Mr. Jack Durr. And Jack, I've been having a great time co-hosting with you. In fact, we just spent like an hour talking when we should have just recorded it because we were telling stories back and forth.

Jack Der (00:33.670)
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Jay (00:36.653)
And I'm so glad you're back for this third episode. How are you doing today?

Jack Der (00:41.270)
I'm doing good. It's been a long workday. It's now time to talk about diving in a fun way, right? Not dealing with it in work, right? So.

Jay (00:49.370)
That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I had an interesting day today too. I, um, I went to my, my kid's school. Um, the teachers and both of my kids, well, I have three kids, but only, you know, two are, are in a normal kind of elementary school. The third one goes to a nature school cause she's three years old. So she has a blast there. But, uh, they asked me to come in and do a presentation on scuba to the classes. So I did a, did one for, uh, three, four and five year olds, which was super fun and interesting.

And I had one for six, seven, eight year olds in different classrooms and back to back. So I had a very interesting day. I had kids spit all over my regulators, even though I said, hey, don't put it in your mouth because you don't want to share regulators and all good. I'm like, oh, that's going in the old, you know, desanitizer. But but it was a fun day. It was an interesting one. And it's so cool to see kids like, you know, take on that.

Jack Der (01:41.514)
Yep.

Jay (01:49.951)
view of wonder at the underwater world, you know, so it was an interesting day. But I'm beat.

Jack Der (01:51.976)
Yeah.

Jack Der (01:56.210)
Yeah, they treat you like an astronaut, right? It's like, wow. And then of course the question is always, do you see sharks?

Jay (02:03.330)
Yeah, exactly. I brought my shark videos where the shark literally have a video where shark swims right over my head. And, um, and they're just like, and you have one of the funniest question I got today though, it was, well, I can't even say it with a straight face. She literally looked at my eyes. It looked very serious question. Like, have you ever been eaten by a shark? I was like, I should have just said yes.

Jack Der (02:19.991)
I'm out.

Jay (02:33.270)
like, yes, I have, I'm a ghost. I don't actually exist. I'm a figment of your imagination. But she was so serious. Have you ever been eaten by a shark? And I was just like, well, the logic here is not making sense. If I had been eaten by a shark, I wouldn't be standing in front of you. But I said, no, you know, kids are very, very worried about the sharks.

Jack Der (02:53.050)
Yeah, and I guess that's I mean, in general, Scuba for for a lot of people is that fear of the unknown. And then once you get past that fear and go underwater, you go, wait, this isn't so scary. Because now you are under the water and you can see things well, supposedly, if the visibility is good enough, but you can see what's underwater, you just go, wow, there's just a lot of water around here. And yes, there's some fish over there. There's, you know, it's, it's not like some,

Jack Der (03:23.593)
everything's down there to eat you type of thing right?

Jay (03:26.070)
Yeah, true. It's true. Well, I don't know. I guess if in this little girl's mind, if you had been eaten by a shark, they're kind enough to return you back when they're done with you. So I was happy about that. But it was funny because I brought a bunch of gear. I read Manfish. It's a great children's book about Jacques Cousteau to them. And I brought a bunch of gear and went through the whole, oh, what do I need to go diving? I need to swim, so I need fins and I need

to be able to see so I need a mask and so on and so forth. But the biggest question, which is our topic today that I didn't bring and I should have, I'm regretting it now, was thermal protection. They said, what do you wear? What do you wear to go underneath there? I said, well, you wear a wetsuit or a dry suit. And they said, well, where's that? I'm like, I didn't bring it because I didn't want to walk into a classroom in a dry suit. I felt like, you know, that could be either cool or they'd be like, this is too much, you know, too much. So,

Jack Der (04:24.472)
Yeah.

Jay (04:26.430)
But yeah, that's kind of leading to our topic today, which is really you came up with was how do you choose thermal protection? And I'm so looking forward to this topic, not only because I think it's a, it's a great thing to talk about, but this is going to be a treat for you if you're listening to this, because you get Jack's mind here on this, which is, which is super amazing crazy talk, right? No, it's good talk. I mean, Jack has a ton of

Jack Der (04:47.616)
Oh, crazy talk.

Jay (04:56.010)
Obviously this is what he, this is his wheelhouse. Um, but it's not just about him and, and DUI, it's actually about thermal protection in general. So I was super excited when you sent me this, um, you know, topics that, Hey, what do you think of this? I said, absolutely, because there's going to be a wealth of knowledge, I think shared from you. And hopefully I can add little tidbits as we go. So you ready to, uh, to jump into this one?

Jack Der (05:21.230)
I am mostly ready, yes.

Jay (05:23.410)
Mostly ready. I like it mostly is that 90% 80% 75. We'll see. All right. So if I if if all of a sudden I just start talking for an hour, we'll know jack jack powered off.

Jack Der (05:31.350)
Yeah, we'll see.

Jack Der (05:41.794)
I had to wake up today and go to work by nine, right? Nine-ish.

Jay (05:45.150)
My nine, yeah, nine, Jack's nine, Jack's nine.

Jay (05:50.030)
All right. Well, let's set this one up with first. The primary question here is why in the world do we need thermal protection? I mean, why can't I just dive naked? And, well, there, there are some reasons for that. But why do we need thermal protection? What's the purpose of it? What are the options that I have out there? And what should I really look for, you know, in choosing my thermal protection? So I'm going to tee that up for you and let you go to town and I'll add tidbits as we go.

Jack Der (06:19.330)
Yeah, well, first off, we know that our body temperatures are that 98.6 or somewhere around there, right? So as we're walking around in air, air is not very conductive as conductive for thermal properties. But when you get in the water, your your body starts losing that heat right away. And yes, people go into a pool that's heated pool. It's like 80 degrees. They jump in, they go, wow, this is nice or jacuzzi. Right.

That water is going to be pretty hot, but as you go and dive around the world, even if you dive in warmer locations like you're going to, let's say, Bonaire or Bahamas, the water is maybe 80 degrees, 82 degrees. It's still pretty warm, right? But if you are diving longer or you do multiple dives throughout the day, your body core temperature is cooling off. So the idea is that everyone wears wetsuits when they start off, right?

Jack Der (07:19.370)
and it's also kind of like protection. Protection, protection. Obviously we don't want to bounce off from the corals and all that stuff, but if you do, there's some protection. But at the same time, that thermal protection is what's keeping you so you're not getting hypothermia, right, which is bad. We all learned that hopefully in our open water class that's bad.

Jay (07:23.090)
Yeah, protection, protection. Yeah.

Jay (07:45.774)
Yeah.

Jack Der (07:49.450)
But at the same time, everybody has different tolerances to cold. So this is the odd part. I grew up in Minnesota. So my jacket that I used to use in the winter in Minnesota is kind of like the same thickness of my jacket that I'm using for San Diego. So, see, I'm wearing my winter-type jacket.

Jay (08:15.633)
Yeah.

Jack Der (08:18.990)
and soft in the years, so I do get colder than I used to. So I see all the time, people will go, OK, just so you know, I dive my dry suit almost everywhere I've gone diving. And then if I don't have a dry suit, I'm wishing I did. But you see people all the time, they go, oh, the water's 80 degrees, I don't need a wet suit. I don't need, I'll just dive in my shorts. That's great. I mean, that means they can tolerate the cold.

Jack Der (08:48.930)
say you turn around you get someone that's thinner or you know just they have no as I call it bioprene natural insulation they might get more cold right so they're wearing wetsuits right so that's the first thing now not everybody dies in warm locations like San Diego you think it's warm I mean it's sunny I mean today was awesome walking around in shorts t-shirt and now I'm

Jay (08:59.537)
I like that bioprene bioprene

Jack Der (09:18.850)
back into a shirt because it's cooled off. The water is not warm. So what happens is you start going, hmm, do I want to dive today? Right? Because you go out and do one dive, you're fine. And all of a sudden the next day you go, hmm, the water was 50 degrees, I was really cold. I don't want to go. Right? So people will, they get their wetsuit, they

Jack Der (09:49.270)
ramping their way up and eventually it gets to a point where even like on a boat dive, let's say you're doing a four four tank boat dive like two in the morning two in the afternoon, and maybe there's a fifth option of a night dive and

Jack Der (10:04.370)
When I started diving, I started obviously in a wetsuit, like probably like everybody else, no one, it's rare that people start in dry suits. I would see the dry suit divers diving all five dives throughout the day. Being a new diver, I was like, yeah, wetsuit, five dives in the day. And then the dry suit divers go, I don't know how you do that. How can you dive that many dives in a day in a wetsuit? You know, as I was younger and my dives were short. So it wasn't like,

Jack Der (10:35.310)
I wasn't like freezing because it's like I can do that for 30, 40 minutes on my big steel 130. You know, like I said, I'm the gift of diving. I just had a big tank. Anyways, I'm just kidding. So and then you flip that years down the road and I would be on the boat wearing the dry suit doing the fifth dive. And then you always go back into the galley and see people sitting there not taking these going on these dives in the afternoon.

Jay (10:43.670)
I'm done.

Jay (10:48.791)
Ha ha.

Jack Der (11:04.390)
or in the evening, and majority of those people were all wetsuit divers. So when the main question I ask people when they're, when is it time to switch from a wetsuit to a dry suit? Right? Because we've gone through the cycle, your dives are getting longer, you're diving more frequently, and then all of a sudden there's a switch for people. They stop diving on days when it's going to be too cold.

Jay (11:32.441)
Mm.

Jack Der (11:34.670)
that question is answered of, would you dive today if you weren't cold? That's when you got to start thinking, hmm, what am I going to do? Am I going to get a thicker wetsuit, go semi-dry, or make that step to a dry suit? Because that's the thought process. If it's stopping you from diving, being cold, do something about it to make it so you're warm and dry. So, I mean that's the basic thought process of

Jay (11:58.792)
Right.

Jack Der (12:04.551)
why we're trying to stay warm.

Jay (12:07.710)
Yeah. And I think you make a really good point there that is something that I think you learn over time, unless you're already kind of understanding the, the physics of the body is, is that cold is cumulative, right? So you can, you can suffer through a dive and be cold and be just fine. But, um, the next dive, right. Or on the surface, right. All of that. I often see divers who are cold, who are on the surface with a wetsuit draped, you know,

Jay (12:38.610)
and no jacket on, no hat, nothing like that. And you're going, well, your body's still adjusting temperatures here, like put a hat on, that's gonna help you, it's gonna keep some temperature there. So the cold becomes cumulative over time, whether it be multiple dives in a day or multiple dives day over day. And that's a really good thing that I wasn't aware of on dive one, right?

Jack Der (12:38.650)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (13:07.750)
it that cold can be cumulative and it's really important. I think it's not only when you're talking about hypothermia, but you're also talking about the studies. There's been a lot of studies and I won't jump into all of them. I don't have them all prepped in front of me so I don't want to go too far about being cold and your decompression. And so your body in general decompresses better when we're not cold. We have a harder time decompressing when we are cold.

Jay (13:37.670)
from a safety perspective. But I'd even say beyond that, I know I've been cold on a dive. I know you've been cold on a dive and it sucks. So you're not really enjoying yourself on those dives. You're kind of thinking, at least I was, like, all right, are we ready to get out now? Like I'm cold, I'm shivering, I'm ready to come out of the water. Like I stopped thinking about the enjoyment of the dive and I start thinking about getting warm and getting out of the water, right? And so those, I like that tipping point

Jay (14:07.670)
When your thermal protection is preventing you from diving, in other words, you are second guessing whether you're going to get in the water today or on that dive, that's when you start to go, what should I do? And I think what you said about wetsuit versus dry suit and those sorts of things will get into the benefits of the dry suit versus wetsuit. But it's also important to a lot of people don't realize what a wetsuit actually is.

Jay (14:37.890)
with air trapped in it, essentially small air bubbles trapped in it. And when you get a thicker web suit, it's a little bit can be a little bit thicker rubber. But really what's changing is there's bigger air bubbles in between those pieces of rubber in there as well. And that's important to point out because if you think logically about a wetsuit and the same principles that apply to your gas that's in your tank and that's in your lungs as you descend apply to any

gas that is on your body or with you when you're diving, which would include the bubbles that are trapped in the neoprene. So in in in wetsuit diving, you also have the thicker you go, the more compression you're going to get, which is the equivalency of adding weight as you go down into into the deeper and the more decompression right that you're going to get of that or expansion

Jack Der (15:29.150)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (15:38.190)
of those gases in your wetsuit as you come back up. And I'll just speak from personal observation here. You know, we had an incident that, you know, I came up from a dive and, you know, a guy was kind of hunched over on the table that we had been kind of prepping from before we went on a dive. He wasn't someone that we dove with, I didn't know him, but he was hunched over at our table. And me and my teammate,

Jay (16:07.850)
saw this, kind of knew something wasn't right. And our training kind of kicked in, hey, man, are you okay? And the answer was kind of a no and a slump over onto the ground. Like, oh, man, what's going on? And so long story short, because I won't go into all the details here, but we started, you know, O2 and we were ready for CPR. And we thought at any moment, I mean, there were hand tremors, the whole deal, clearly a case of decompression illness, right? Clearly something

Jack Der (16:19.112)
Wow.

Jay (16:37.730)
came and they ended up airlifting him out of there. And he took three chamber rides to come back to normal. What ended up happening when we got the story later was he had switched to a much thicker web suit than he had normally used, had trouble getting down in the water, got down finally when he hit that level that started to compress enough to make him negatively

Jack Der (16:42.192)
Hmm.

Jack Der (16:59.892)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (17:07.730)
skyrocketed back up with that expansion, right? And so for me, like again, when you're thinking about options here, you also need to understand that there are safety considerations when you're talking about what suits versus dry suits or any thermal protection that you're having on. And I think a lot of people only think about, does it keep me warm? They don't all apply the same knowledge they get in their open water class about, you know, gases and how they behave underwater

Jack Der (17:10.792)
Yep.

Jay (17:37.670)
a seven mill or a nine mill or whatever, you know, thickness of what suit that you're going with, that has an impact on how you dive and even how deep you should dive, at least in UTD, we say, look, if you're gonna dive a seven mil, great, don't go below 60 feet. We know that there's, you know, we can't scientifically say here's the compression that's gonna happen because it's impossible because every suit's different. But to keep within a real good safety margin,

don't go below 60 feet on a seven mil because the expansion you can control coming back up right a lot better so on and so forth but anyway i just wanted to point out that that's an often overlooked piece of your thermal protection is understanding what it's actually made of and because of what it's made of how it will behave under the water and i know we'll get into to dry suits and the differences there but um but yeah maybe my little soap box came out about

Jack Der (18:37.310)
No, I mean, it's, I mean, that's, I mean, just in the nature of the wetsuit itself, I mean, at that same time, when you're talking about the air bubbles going away, you're losing that insulation property at depth, right? So, anytime you're compressing stuff, you're losing that insulation, right? Yeah, I feel bad for when I hear stories like that. I mean, it happens all the time. I mean, because people switch.

Jay (18:37.670)
Thanks for watching!

Jay (18:56.354)
Right.

Jack Der (19:06.250)
You see it in San Diego. Some people will travel somewhere from a warm destination and they're going, oh, we're gonna go dive San Diego. And you go, have you ever dove in cold water before? It's like they grew up in Hawaii, right? And you're like, have you dove a seven mil wet suit before or anything like that? So it's always a question because obviously if we could just dive around in our own natural skin going around, that would be ideal.

Jay (19:17.170)
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Jack Der (19:36.371)
where the water is that warm, most of us don't live.

Jay (19:40.530)
Right, right. You need something. And I'm certainly not trying to bash wetsuits. So I realized maybe that came across the way I, what I'm really trying to say is be knowledgeable about what you're choosing. Right. That that's the thing. And I think often we just, we just kind of go, Oh, well I'm cold. Just go to a seven mil. And you go, well, there's, that choice has other consequences. Like you're saying, both from a thermal protection standpoint and from a, from a, I would say a safety perspective,

Jack Der (19:48.311)
No, no.

Jay (20:11.272)
that are important to consider when you're doing that or making that choice, right?

Jack Der (20:16.630)
Yeah, I mean, wetsuits, I mean, if you think about it too, it's a simple piece of dive gear. As long as it fits, you put it on and you can go diving. There's no real technical aspect of it besides the waiting, right? And that's why the wetsuit still, when you're starting off, that's what everyone chooses. It's the most popular piece going forward. And the price is usually acceptable, right? And then,

Jay (20:29.512)
Right.

Jay (20:42.112)
Right.

Jack Der (20:46.690)
gap when you go from wetsuit to dry suit. So that's the other reason why a lot of people just keep diving wet, you know, but they'll just keep adding more and more layers on the more, you know, if they become those serious divers.

Jay (20:54.134)
Yep.

Jay (21:00.510)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's important to in this setup here to say that, you know, there, there are lots of options. So it, when it even comes to what suits, you know, I've seen a lot of layering, even when it comes to what see, you know, farmer john style with jackets and different things like that. And there's a lot of different manufacturers that offer different things, right. And so I think that, again,

this is a really most people that start diving start diving into what's you know, I know I did. And you use that wetsuit over and over and over again. And eventually it wears out and you buy another one. Right. And so the I think that wetsuit wetsuits have evolved forward as well, to be fair. But you still have to kind of go into this discussion with your eyes open, in terms of how does this affect my waiting? How does it affect the safety? How does it affect,

of the stuff that I want to go do when it comes to a wetsuit. And then also when it comes to a dry suit, right? There are safety thoughts that come in there and there are things that you need to consider, like you say, price and things like that. But for me, I can just flat out say, um, the minute I bought my, my dry suit and put it on, I think I've used my, my wetsuit like twice since then, like it's sat there. So my wetsuit was a great investment because it's lasted me years and years and years, cause I just don't use it. Right.

sits on the shelf. Now I do use a wetsuit in the pool. When I'm teaching in the pool, we're doing you know, basic stuff in the pool, just because I get cold, right here and there. But uh, but that's about it. And I love like putting on a wetsuit like, and you jump in the in the pool, and it just floats you there on the surface is so nice, you know, because as a as an instructor, like I don't have to do any work to float over the top and see how people are doing, because my wetsuits doing

Jack Der (22:30.830)
Yeah, and then you pull it out and the rubber's all stiff. You're like, ugh, how did I fit into this before?

Jay (23:00.510)
for me. It's beautiful. But but yeah, since I got my dry suit, I have not used a wetsuit very often. I think there was one boat charter that we took out that was a we it's a joke amongst you know, my dive team, I think I mentioned last episode that call it savage diving, you know, we're gonna go savage diving today on our wetsuits. And everyone just kind of made the joke like, Okay, fine. So I just showed up with a wetsuit. And I'm like, I thought we were savage diving

Jay (23:31.211)
And we did, we had a blast and there's nothing wrong with a wetsuit at all. But for me, once you go dry, you can't go back. At least that's my experience of it.

Jack Der (23:40.790)
Yeah, well, I had a couple reasons why I switched from a dry suit or a wetsuit to a dry suit. And it wasn't because I was getting cold at the time. I am not a stock clothing type of person. Part of that is growing up in the Midwest playing ice hockey. I could not find a wetsuit that would fit my short, stocky body, apparently.

Jack Der (24:10.870)
so long it was useless. And then by the time I got something kind of in between, I would spend so much time just trying to get my arms and I was like exhausted. So for me was the first dry suit. I've, you know, switching to the dry suit was, wow, I can get in and out of this so easy. And then I was sold right there just for that reason. Not whether it was staying warm or not.

Jack Der (24:41.671)
all exhausted trying to get this stupid suit on and off for me. I mean, that's a personal thing because apparently from hockey I have forearms, right?

Jay (24:52.713)
Yeah.

Jay (24:55.990)
I always had issues with my calves. That's just to be totally personal here. No one, everyone will turn off the episode now. Jack and Jay are talking about their bodies cancel. But, but yeah, I always had an issue. Like I have, I played basketball growing up in college and I apparently have, the only reason I've ever been aware of my calves, um, was because I had a good

Jack Der (25:04.290)
I don't know.

Jack Der (25:08.771)
Awesome specimens right here.

Jay (25:26.510)
who pointed it out that that was a very attractive part of my body. I was like, what? Like my calves? That's so strange. Since that day, that was like 20 years ago or something, since that day I have been super self-aware of my calves. It's so weird, like super self-conscious about it. All right, well, let's, you and I are both dry-suit divers. There are reasons to savage dive.

that loud here and there. But let's let's maybe deep dive into dry suits, because I think that that's, that's really the heart of at least where your wealth of knowledge comes out and it comes into play in the dry suit. So, you know, how do you choose a dry shoot, dry suit? What are you looking for? Right? How do you actually dive one? And how do you care for it? So is there special things that you need to do when you when you

Jay (26:26.370)
What about leaks or storage or those sorts of things? So I cannot wait to hear your thoughts here and to get into this and hopefully I'll add a little color here and there.

Jack Der (26:36.710)
at any point in time, just stop me and just go, oh, I don't wanna like ramble too long, right? But anyways, let's get into this. So the first question that you asked is like, what should you look for in a dry suit? The first thing I would say is what kind of diving are you gonna do? What is your purpose behind wanting to get a dry suit? Is it just to stay warm? And you're just gonna go out and do some, you know, just recreational dives,

Jack Der (27:07.130)
the local dive spot, whatever, and you're just going to go out and have, you know, just want to stay warm. Or are you going to go do technical diving? Are you going to go do cave dives? Are you going to go crawl around inside wrecks and sharp objects or stuff like that? Find out what the purpose is of your diving. Because there's not just one brand,

Jack Der (27:36.650)
that you can go from. It's not like probably when dry suits started, you know, back in the early DUI days, you had very few choices on what suits you would get, what material, but now there's so many different manufacturers, so many different benefits here and there. So look for one, you should, if you're talking to someone, they should be asking you questions about what kind of diving are you doing? Because that's a big thing. Of course, I mean, the other big question is what's your price? You know, what's your budget?

Jay (28:00.370)
Right.

Jack Der (28:07.850)
And that budget just in general a rough estimate you're gonna look in in general, I'd say It's a big number two thousand dollars. I would say is a decent dry suit You can go up or down from that in either direction but that's kind of like the Starting area I would say for dry suits and then of course as you go more expensive. There's more features more durability so

Jay (28:22.313)
Mm-hmm.

Jack Der (28:37.410)
The next question is, what does your dive shop offer? Do they carry the brand that you want? If not, have you done your research on just the different things? I mean, when you go and take some of the dry suit classes, they go, oh, here's the different kinds of suits. There's the tri-laminate suits, there's the neoprene suits, blah, blah, blah. There's all these things. So do some research online. So you kind of get an idea ahead of time

Jack Der (29:06.670)
at. But the person that's helping you pick out a dry suit should really be asking you those questions of what kind of diving are you looking at. What I mean so for example just to myself I've had the durable dry suits and I started off with a very lightweight dry suit went to a durable heavy-duty one and I went back to the lightweight one and the reason for me my goal was not just the

and all that stuff. I want something light that I could travel with. Okay, so that was one of the needs that I had from my own personal suit. The next person, they may go, well I plan on going inside of a wreck and I plan on crawling around and get it all full of oil and rust and all that stuff. Hmm, maybe you should get a more robust dry suit for that, right? So you have to look at what your goal is

Jay (30:00.044)
Right.

Jack Der (30:06.650)
trying to fit into that price range. And then with the way, I mean, here's the main, I break these suits down into, I would say, kind of two categories. There's like the entry level suits, and then the higher end, I'd say the more, not say dedicated, but the more robust suits that take care of and last longer. I don't wanna name brands, but there are some brands out there

Jack Der (30:36.850)
in that thousand dollar range or less. It may not last that long. There has to be, there's always compromises, right? Cause if you think about a dry suit's just made out of either fabric or some sort of neoprene. And if it's fabric, how durable is that fabric, right? And then how is the suit built? One of the big questions right off the bat is,

Jay (30:38.612)
Right.

Jay (30:52.970)
Alright.

Jay (30:58.077)
All right.

Jack Der (31:06.810)
dollars less than this more expensive suit. And it could just be in the way that it was built. It's not like the sewing machines are different, but how did they make it so it doesn't leak? How did they, because every time the needle goes through the material, right, it's poking holes, so how do they seal that? Right? So it comes down to that. And historically, what I've seen so far, it's real fast to make the dry suits, but the taped seam dry suits tend to not last as

Jay (31:17.333)
Right.

Jack Der (31:36.730)
long as something that has like the urethane seams where it's bonded to the material. So you kind of have to do a little research to get into that when you're looking for a suit. You know, and it comes down to does the dye shop carry that? Are they giving you ample knowledge for that? And will they give you a good training on that dry suit? I mean, that is really important thing to look at also

Jay (31:43.112)
Right.

Jack Der (32:07.450)
getting this dry suit from, I don't want to, again, you want the people that you're getting the dry suit from to be dry suit divers, okay? The people that are teaching you how to dive a dry suit, you want them to be dry suit divers because they know the ins and outs of a dry suit versus, oh I can teach that type of thing because you want to get that firsthand knowledge and that comfort level of the instructor

Jay (32:16.132)
Mm-hmm.

Jay (32:26.754)
Right.

Jay (32:36.130)
Right. Right. And I think you point out an important question. I mean, we can talk about so in full disclosure, Jack sold me my new dry suit. So that that and I am so excited about that. So I just arrived and I have not gotten the water yet because I'm still packing boxes and moving. But that is on my like. Tippy, tippy, tippy, tippy, tippy front of my brain, like I want I want to get in the water, get the water. I have been tempted to go get in the pool, but I'm not going to do it.

Jack Der (32:37.222)
So.

Jay (33:06.410)
Um, but when we started talking about that, one of the interesting things was, you know, when you said, what kind of diving are you going to do? And I said, you know, a lot of people go, well, all of it, right. I want to, I want to do, do you want to do Rex? Like, well, yeah, maybe. You know, I just saw this post, you know, on, uh, some social media site where it was like, I just got my open water. Um, what should I get for X, Y, and Z? I'll maybe go to cave. And you're going like, wow.

very early, like, you know, but maybe not, that's, I don't want to advance past, you know, my advanced open water, but maybe cave. And you go like, Whoa, that's a huge jump. If like, the line of the sand is advanced open water period, and then, but in asterisks, but maybe cave someday. Right. So I think some, some folks out there, when you get asked the question, what kind of diving are you doing? The answer could be, you know, all of it, or I don't know.

Jack Der (33:48.550)
Thanks for watching!

Jay (34:06.130)
understand, okay, well, not just what are your aspirations, because those are good. And what path are you actually on the path for those aspirations? It's like Jack saying, if you say, well, eventually someday I want to get to rec, but I'm not going to start that for five years or whatever it is. And you buy a super thick suit, right for protection for rec, but all you're doing for the next three or four years is shallow reef

Jay (34:36.210)
Right. Like the majority of what you're doing is that. Right. So I think when you asked me that, I said, look, I know we're doing more exploration. I know I don't know what that means. It could mean shimming through a little piece of whatever. It could mean, you know, we did a project that was like a riverbed and it was, you know, a 20 foot dive for two hours that we found nothing. You know, it could be that. Like it's kind of a big range of things that I could run into.

And I want to be prepared for that. And so that led us down the path of understanding what materials to choose and, and how to kind of put that together. And it turns out like, I'm super happy with what I got. Right. Because it's that in between the space between the lighter suit and the, and the more thick suit, because I want it to be able to be versatile. So I think that's a good thing to keep in mind that what is the diving you're really doing on a regular basis and where the aspiration exists.

Jay (35:36.090)
I wanted to kind of highlight as well is that just like any piece of scuba equipment, it takes training and time in the saddle to really dial it in. And so I remember my first dry suit dive, I went with a diver who comes from the Pacific Northwest. So he was a tried and true dry suit diver, right? He had to. That's colder water than San Diego, right? And I wanted to learn from him.

Jack Der (36:01.632)
Right.

Jay (36:06.070)
I remember the first time I dove my dry suit, I got a bunch of gas trapped in my feet. I felt like I was running through sand or quicksand. I just couldn't get my feet on my fins. It was just a mess. It's kind of funny to say it now, looking back, but that's what it's going to feel like, probably your first time diving it.

Jay (36:36.090)
to dial that suit in, it's not just get it, a what suit, there really isn't any training. And I think that's probably one of the reasons that gets used so often in an open water class is because if you add a dry suit, you're adding a layer of extra training that the instructor would have to do. And so my encouragement is if you choose a dry suit, which I would recommend to any diver out there, whether you're warm water or you're not, that you also choose your training

Jay (37:06.070)
you know, carefully. And I think Jack has really good advice there that you get trained by somebody who dives a dry suit, right? That's what they do. That's what they choose. And that's true in general of any training, in my opinion, is that you want to train with people that that's what they die. That's how they die. So you want to learn how they die because there's just an immense amount of knowledge that isn't in the academics.

Jay (37:36.250)
that's promised on the online course or that's sold on their website, that you just by observing a diver who is in their element doing their thing, you are going to gain so much from that rather than somebody who, like I like the word can, I can train that because I'm qualified to, but I dive wetsuits most of the time. It's okay to ask the instructor, do you dive a wetsuit or

Jay (38:06.710)
find another instructor, right? No big deal. The answer is dry suit, okay, which kind of dry suit? What kind of diving are you doing? So on and so forth. So I think those are two key things I wanted to pull out of what you said there because I think they're really, really important points for someone that's considering dry suit or maybe you own one and you're uncomfortable in it. And that to me comes back down to training, right? I've had a lot of people come to me and say, hey, Jay, I have this dry suit.

Jay (38:36.790)
your training is, but man, the way I got trained, I don't feel comfortable in it. Can you train me in it? Yeah, let's go. And by the end of one day, they're dialed in and feel great by, you know, the next day that we go fun dive, they love their dry suit. So the training has a lot to do with the, I think enjoyment level that you get out of it as well.

Jack Der (38:58.510)
Yeah, I mean, it's, and then do, once you do get your dry suit certification, you're diving, it takes some people dozens of dives before they start feeling comfortable. I mean, you always hear the story of, oh, I put it on, it's, oh, I love it. You know, I'm a natural, right? And then you turn around and it's like, why aren't you diving a dry suit? Ah, I don't like it. I'm like, how many times you dive it? Two times, I'm like, well, give it a chance, right? Because it really comes down to a practice type of thing, right?

Jack Der (39:29.430)
You have to learn, I mean again, you have unlike a wetsuit where you have a bunch of little bubbles, you have a whole suit full of air, right? So it's building up that comfort level right there of, you know, how do you handle the air, the compression, you know. There's a lot of, I guess, people get worried when they start diving the dry suit.

Jack Der (39:58.530)
that in the class they put you through these scenarios. It's to practice something. So if you do get in that scenario you kind of know what to do. But it's, but I always feel bad because it's like they flip you upside down, right? And you're full of air in the suit, but you're only like 10 feet underwater. There's no way you're gonna get solve the issue in 10 feet. So it's like hmm

Jay (40:14.476)
Ha ha ha.

Jay (40:24.492)
Right? No.

Jack Der (40:28.450)
care of people too much, but realize that with some practice, you shouldn't be getting into those situations anyways. Especially one, there's a lot of things I call user error. And the basic user error is, like with any dive equipment, did you maintain your dive gear, right? Did you make sure that the valves are working on your dry suit? Are the seals still good?

Jay (40:49.911)
Yes.

Jack Der (40:58.510)
dive their dry suit seasonally and they let them sit around. And then they pull them out there in the cold water and the first dive they go, I was wet. And it's like, but did you do any maintenance? Did you store it properly? All that other stuff. But I do have one little interesting story where it crosses over wet suit and dry suit. This is a kind of a DUI story. One of the things that was kind of like

Jay (41:06.641)
Yep.

Jay (41:13.170)
Yep. Yep.

Jack Der (41:28.670)
I guess a privilege to work at DUI is the owner, the founder of DUI, Dick Long. He started the company in 1963.

Jack Der (41:42.430)
I mean, he's a diver, right? He dove all the time. He did stuff for the military. He did these hot water suits for saturation divers in the 70s going way down, working on the oil rigs and all this other stuff. But one of the things that he did was he worked with the Navy SEALs in San Diego. And they always had problems, one, keeping the divers warm. So they had wetsuits. And then they had those vehicles.

the James Bondy things that they ride in. Um, and then, and the operators, they could drive the vehicles underwater, go around with no problem. But what happened was they would load up the vehicles with different divers. They're all different sizes. Right. Um, and then they put this neoprene on, they'd go down and all of a sudden they're going back up and day one with the one set of people, it would work. But the next day is a different group of people and they're like shooting

Jay (42:14.179)
All right.

Jack Der (42:41.810)
surface because the different buoyancies of their of their wetsuits, the bubbles expanding so to speak. So he was on this goal to find a material that didn't do that and that's how they came up with the the CF 200 material. It was all by accident. They had this, and by the way, the CF 200 material is a tri-laminate even though it's neoprene. So it's three, it's still three layers, right? But what they

Jack Der (43:11.850)
sitting on the ground. Took like back in the day, back in like this, this is like back in the 70s. The equivalent of a Home Depot bucket and it was full of tools or water, a bunch of heavy stuff, and it was sitting on a piece of neoprene for several days. And then when he went and moved the bucket, he noticed that there's this permanent crease on the neoprene. And then when he cut it open, he noticed that the bubbles were gone in that part of the neoprene and the material itself,

Jay (43:18.970)
Hm.

Jack Der (43:41.750)
So therefore crushing all the air bubbles out. And then so that's how they started making these early wetsuits and dry suits for the military because they had material that they could control the buoyancy characteristics. It was neutrally buoyant on its own. So they use that in those early military applications. And it's still a material that's being sold today. So it's kind of crazy. So when you come down,

Jay (43:56.322)
Mm.

Jack Der (44:11.770)
And you're going to see this crazy piece of Navy material kit, tank, looks like torpedo tubes, that they still use to crush the material from way back when till today. I mean, it looks more beat up now. So I mean, and that's what I'm just saying. There's a lot of different kinds of materials out there. Obviously, there's new, more modern materials. And yes, tri-laminates.

Jay (44:20.501)
Mm.

Jay (44:25.792)
Wow, that's cool.

Jack Der (44:42.470)
or a crushed neoprene versus a compressed neoprene. There's a lot in that compressed versus crushed. So that's kind of like a little bit of my bias because compressed means those air bubbles still exist in the neoprene. So you still have those buoyancy characteristics. So anyways, little side track on the stories there.

Jay (45:00.130)
Right. No, that's a cool story. Yeah, no, I mean, it's cool to get the background information on the crushed neoprene versus, well, it's crushed neoprene plus Trilam, which is super cool. But it's always the need, it's meeting that need and super interesting on how that need presented itself, right?

Jay (45:30.610)
quote unquote discovery of a need that like, look, some people shoot to the surface, some people don't. Well, we benefit today when we talk about, you know, the different materials that are out there, um, come from those needs. So that's, that's really cool. And I'll just say from my perspective, I think that the

Jay (45:50.210)
the discussion around training and needs and all of those things, when something comes up new, right? Like this that you're talking about with the story, it then requires us to train to be able to use it, right? If that makes sense. So we have this discovery, we train and we now understand how to use it. The manufacturers have to understand how to utilize it correctly, so on and so forth, right?

Jay (46:20.170)
back down to in a lot of ways is, is also if you are that diver in some ways struggling or having problems or you're getting cold or, and I always, you know, I'm holding my, my safety stop at 15 feet and you know, for whatever reason, the minute I move a little bit, boom, off, I go to the surface. Those are the, you then have new needs, right? And I think being aware of those meeting those needs is really, really important. So that's good stuff. Good stuff. Anything else in, I

I bet you we could talk for three or four hours about just dry suits themselves. But how do you care for them? So what are some things maybe behind the scenes that, yeah, I mean, storage, sure. How often should I wax my zipper, you know, so on and so forth? What are some of the thoughts that you have around caring for dry suit once you've made that investment?

End of Part I